The Historical Ponderings Society

[EverySongbirdSays]

Following on from the thread "What questions do you have about stuff from History or am I the only one?" Which is here

Ever wondered how we got from the clothes of Cave people to the clothes of today?

Who was the first person to make and eat Cheese? Or cake?

How ideas became widespread

Why the Aztecs didn't have the wheel?

Why Elizabeth I never married?

How accurate historical fiction is?

Then this your thread and we are your people.

PROCEED HISTORY LOVERS

I don't think random weeing was normal among hoop skirt wearers - I have seen it commented on I think as an instance of how rough countrywomen were. So I would take it with a pinch of salt. And I don't think Edwardians were still wearing hoop skirts in any case?

And Victorian women did wear drawers!

It's always fascinated me how women coped in hot climates during Victorian times. I know that even in London, I've found myself resenting the sheet I was lying on - starkers - because it was so hot and sticky. (When the weather was hot and humid.) The idea of having to go to bed in a full nightgown, possibly with my hair in curl papers or something, fills me with horror.

At the underwear exhibition currently on at the V&A, they have a ribbon corset, which is basically the boning covered by ribbon, and then some ribbons going horizontally to hold it together. Aertex seems to have been a wonder product when it first came out, too. And fine lawn cotton rather than wool. I guess not everyone did cope and heat may have contributed to some suffering a fit of the vapours.

I've seen the exhibition, EBear. It was good, but I wished there'd been more about what ordinary people wore, day in and day out.

I used to do historical reenactment wearing Tudor upper class clothing, in July and August, which often meant 5 layers of fabric (smock, kirtle and gown, the last two lined, sometimes also stiffened and interlined). Sometimes it was hot and I don't remember being uncomfortable. I think we stayed inside where it was cool (old houses being pretty good for that) or sat around in the shade and didn't move much. Headgear would also help protect you.
Some people were doing strenuous work in slightly less clothing but I think it was just the haymakers in direct sun who really suffered. Certainly a loose smock and big linen skirts are a lot more comfortable than the exposed skin that the visitors would wander around with.
Obviously England even in summer is not the same as a really hot country, but I think the clothes have less of an effect than you might think.

I'm going to the underwear exhibition in a few weeks!

It was also a bit colder in Tudor and Victorian times, though the medieval warm period was pretty similar to what we have now.

I stand corrected on tooth decay comments in a previous thread:
www.newscientist.com/article/dn24817-ancient-hunter-gatherers-had-rotten-teeth/

"Scientists have long thought that tooth decay only became common in humans about 10,000 years ago, when we began farming – and eating starchy crops that fed sugar-loving bacteria on our teeth. But Isabelle De Groote of the Natural History Museum in London, UK, and her colleagues have found widespread tooth decay in hunter-gatherers that lived several thousand years before the origin of agriculture...
The cave contained clues: the remains of pine nuts and sweet North African acorns. There were also remnants of grindstones that could have processed nuts into flat breads and sticky porridges."

"I wished there'd been more about what ordinary people wore, day in and day out."

I don't think it survived usually - because it was being worn day in, day out.

Oh lampshadelady I'm pretty sure Neil Gaimen talked about/showed prehistoric dreams in one of his Sandman novels. Dreams are inherently visual so I'd imagine we've been having them before we had words.
Their living conditions would have been harsh, but that was just their lives. They would have also had lots of positive experiences and probably still had weird sex dreams about that odd guy from two tribes over that you definitely didn't fancy and now hoped to never meet again.

Just signing up to the club!

I have definitely used grockle since I was a child ( born in the 60s) and it's still in common use here. As is grockle bait - buckets, spades, sticks of rocks, inflatable crocodiles and other such tat! Then there's the whole weird Bristolian thing of adding an l to words - ideal instead of idea, but also more modern usage such as Asdl (the supermarket) and my absolute favourite Proseccl (fizzy wine)!

'Proper job, Boy!'

Many years ago, my mother lived in the West Country and that was the phrase she came away with.

We have a chain of shops called Proper Job! They sell DIY and household stuff, sacks if coal, gardening supplies etc.

There's definitely an ale called Proper Job

There was a mini ice age in Tudor times, wasn't there? That would account for them wearing so many layers.

Ah - then the names might be tapping into an old saying?

She was also given to saying 'A man forced his pig and it died' - although she admitted, before her death, that she had no idea what it meant. It was just something that was said locally and she'd picked it up.

I'm reading a book set in 1938 and someone just thought about getting in some extra isinglass for preserving eggs.

The phrase is used a lot here. It can be applied to the outcome of a task as in your "proper job, boy" if someone did it well, but also to describe something as being good e.g. swigs ale mentioned above, wipes mouth with back of hand and gives an appreciative sigh " ah, proper job".

the names might be tapping into an old saying

Yes - sorry - I didn't know that the phrase was unusual so didn't think to say "the beer and shops are clearly named for the phrase". :)

"Proper job" is a generic term of approval where I grew up (Westcountry). Not used by anyone much younger than my dad, but not considered archaic either.

"I've made you a cup of tea". "Proper job".

"I see they've painted the church gates". "Ah yes proper job that one".

(feel free to imagine it as arrrr yes if you prefer the pirate version)

Cross-posted - all good examples of proper job usage :o

I think - if I recall - that she tended to use it in the latter sense. As a mark of especial approbation, for example.

The pig one I can (thankfully) shed no light on!

I think the "all pirate's have a West Country accent" thing was due to the actor Robert Newton being cast in some early pirate movies. There were a lot of pirate's from here, but presumably a lot of pirate's would have had Spanish or Moroccan accents, amongst others.
Now there's an interesting subject - white slavery. There was an entire village in Cornwall that was carted off by the Barbary Corsairs and the first wave of slaves ( indentured labourers) in the Americas were white, before Africans were found to be more durable for tobacco and cotton estates.