Did Anne Boleyn shag her brother George?

[lordStrange]

I have spent quite a lot of time pondering this recently .

I always assumed it was a tall tale cooked up by her charming husband H VIII and his monster pals, but now I'm coming to the idea that desperation to produce an heir for H might have caused her to view her brother George as a decent sperm donor.

I'm no historian so I wonder what the view is on here?

She was fitted up.

If she'd gone 2-3 years without a pregnancy then maybe her trying to get pregnant by someone else would have some logic.

Otherwise, the balance of risk ie Henry's reaction if she never had a boy vs Henry's reaction if she was caught makes no sense.

I don't think there was anything in the Mark Smeaton thing. He was just a shy musician and got told if he confessed right away his life would be spared and all would be fine. Not sure about George. His wife was very jealous of his relationship with Anne. But impossible to say if there was anything untoward in it.

Richard III and Henry VIII, for two, both had bastard sons. But it wasn't treason for kings to be adulterous!

Babbity, agree Anne married late but she wasn't past the age of being able to conceive (as evidence by the miscarriage) and her ladies in waiting would've known if she still had regular periods.

It's unknown how old she was when she died -'between 32 and 35 I think.

George Boleyn had shared in the spoils accrued by the Boleyns and had been created Viscount Rochford and appointed a member of the Privy Council. It would have been pretty awkward to have him hanging around court as a member of the Bolyen faction after Ann's fall, so he was conveniently despatched at the same time as his sister. He was resented by the old ruling classes for being proud and an upstart - so his removal was not unwelcome to many.

The only evidence against him was that on one occasion he spent a long time alone with his sister. Those who attended his trial thought he put up a robust defence and would be acquitted. It seems highly unlikely that he was guilty as charged.

Elizabeth was born Sept 1533; the adultery with Smeaton was alleged April and May 1534 and April 1535. She was accused of first sleeping with Norris in October 1533, Brereton in December 1533 and Weston in May 1534.

So her first two adulteries were before she'd had any miscarriage and the first when she was six weeks or so post partum?

Chinny reckon!

Can anyone recommend decent history books on this period? I've only ever studied 18th century + history and having read WH/ButB I'm intrigued to find out more.

Eric Ives' "The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn" is good

I'm reading Alison Weir's The Fall of Anne Boleyn, in preparation for another attempt at WH!

AW points out Anne was actually pregnant on all but one of the dates cited in the court, and the one she wasn't was the one shortly after Elizabeth's birth which was before she was churched (40 days after birth)

Thank you

...sex while pregnant and before being churched after birth was more taboo then.

Her last words on the scaffold are incredibly brave.

In "The Six Wives of Henry the VIII' by Alison Weir she says that a queen being adulterous wasn't legally treason on her part, only the man's. It was sleeping with the Queen that was the treasonous act. I reckon they made up the brother stuff because they knew cheating wasn't enough and they needed her dead not just divorced.

I'd recommend "The Six wives of Henry the VIII" by Antonia Fraser.

Im just reading (again) The Lady in the Tower by Alison Weir- great book- highly recommend it

www.amazon.co.uk/The-Lady-In-Tower-England/dp/0712640177

I don't believe Anne Boleyn was ever unfaithful to Henry VIII, I think she was doomed by the politics and Court power plays of the time and Henry was a capricious King.

Unlike Katherine of Aragon Anne had no powerful relatives to be wary of and there was no way Henry wanted another ex wife in the background.

Alison Weir's book 'The Lady in the Tower' is very good. I haven't read any books by respected historians who believe AB was guilty as charged.

Am now reading The Six Wives.

Tiredemma and I read the same AW book - I was using the subtitle I think!

I just wanted to say - Anne really wasn't over the hill at her age! Very few women were properly married-and-having-sex as young as 12, as suggested upthread. Many were betrothed, but it was quite frowned upon to let your teenage children have sex, because it was known how dangerous pregnancy was to a young girl. This is why we remember Margaret Beaufort, who did have her only child very young - she's unusual.

The usual age for men to marry was early to mid-twenties, and a bit younger for women. Henry's own mother Elizabeth was in her late 30s when she had her last child.

So I find it very persuasive that she would not have felt the need to try to have sex with anyone else to get pregnant - she would just have thought she needed time.

And why Suffolk marrying Katherine Willoughby at 13 or 14 was such an interesting event that ambassadors bothered mentioning it.
I think we tend to forget that older women having babies is something that was actually more common in pre-contraception times than it is now. The average age of first babies is now high, but there have always been plenty of 'omg I thought it was the menopause!' babies born to women in their 40s.

Good point, that's true.

Completely agree, Jeanne.

she would just have thought she needed time.

I wonder, though, after Katherine of Aragon's experiences she wouldn't have been concerned at playing the 'just give it time' card. H VIII knew he could father sons, just wasn't having much luck fathering a legitimate one. And succession would have preyed on his mind given the Tudors were interlopers on the throne. Likewise Anne needed to consolidate her power base. I don't think this meant she boffed her brother, mind you - I can see the logic of choosing someone inside the Boleyn faction but not your own brother. Surely there was an obscure cousin if you were so minded.