Did Anne Boleyn shag her brother George?

[lordStrange]

I have spent quite a lot of time pondering this recently .

I always assumed it was a tall tale cooked up by her charming husband H VIII and his monster pals, but now I'm coming to the idea that desperation to produce an heir for H might have caused her to view her brother George as a decent sperm donor.

I'm no historian so I wonder what the view is on here?

She was massively religious so I'd say no, she wouldn't have shagged the brother.

Henry listened to nasty gossips with an agenda. Much like modern day 'guests' on Jeremy Kyle... 'she's shagging other blokes coz so and so said so on Facebook'.

I never thought she actually did it.

She was so devout.

And she loved Henry.

Plus the practicalities.

I think he had an acquired brain injury after his fall which changed his personality and made home make all these irrational decisions.

In modern terms anne Boleyn was actually a victim of domestic violence, not so different from the 2 women a week murdered by their partners now.

Some things haven't changed in 500 years.

just remembered something I read recently about Mark Smeaton. The suggestion I read was that it's possible he confessed in the hope of being shown mercy, not because he actually had a relationship with her. Because he wasn't a gentleman, his punishment for treason was likely to have been worse than beheading (burned at the stake or disembowelling or something?) so he may have been led to believe that a confession would offer him a more merciful sentence. Something like that anyway.

I don't think she did either.

His wife appeared to be bitter about life in general and she testified against him too didn't she?

I'm sure the facts in a lot of the books I've read also point towards him being homosexual, although that could just be the books that I read

Poor old Anne, I hope she did get some fun before getting her head chopped off. Can't have been much fun dealing with Henry's weeping pus filled leg . Weren't she and her brother brought up in different countries? So they might not have seen eachother in a sibling type way. Although I know nothing, I've only read Hilary Mantel's version!

I don't think she did.

I do think she was rhesus negative though, with Henry being positive. This explains why her first pregnancy proceeded safely but after that it was a total disaster area Absolutely nothing she could have done either :(

I think Anne was not very highly sexed at all, that was how she got Henry and why her dd was the virgin queen. I don't think she cheated and I don't think she is that smart. I thought she got the idea of divorce from Henry's older sister.

I think that Anne learnt a few sexual tricks during her time in France that meant she was more forward in bed than her English contemporaries. Whether she only learnt about them through court gossip or put them into practise in France is anyone's guess. The use of these tricks stroked Henry's ego to begin with, but also gave him ammunition when events turned against her and he decided to get rid of her. I believe she was faithful during her marriage, she was a bright woman and a devout Christian, but once Henry had decided he had been bewitched false rumours started to spread (probably initiated by Jane Rochford) and Cromwell then ran with them.

I think if you ask yourself 'How good was the evidence?' as opposed to 'is it possible that somebody in her position might have done this?' you have to come out with a clear no.
They were just trying to throw everything possible at her in the hope some of it would stick.

The 'George as gay' thing is a recent trope - the contemporary evidence points to him being promiscuous but it's more likely to have been other women than men. People have just added that to the fact that his wife was childless and come up with him being gay as an explanation, when you don't really need an explanation other than infertility.

Bumping rather than putting on the Wolf Hall thread.

What counts against it for me is that her last miscarriage, presumably Henry's, was only a few months before she was killed. Three pregnancies in four years wasn't bad going on the fertility front and I doubt she had any inkling that she'd be luckier with another man, balanced against the enormous risk of doing that. When she died, she was early-mid thirties, plenty of time still to bear more children.

Mid thirties was considered to be old and past it in Todur times. Girls were married at twelve years old.

Tudor, that is.

I think she didn't have a high sex drive at all. She wasn't that religious as she was with child when she married. The behaviour she displayed to Mary leads me to believe she wouldn't risk Elizabeth's position. I also thought she got the divorce idea from Margaret, Henry's sister in Scotland.

Of course not. There has never been any evidence - Henry just wanted rid, and needed her dead rather than having her hanging around like Katherine of Aragon.

I wouldn't believe a word Lady Rochford said, she was a monster - look at her behaviour with poo Katherine Howard.

pooR Katherine Howard, not poo!

NB Anne wasn't preggers when they got married - at most, had just conceived but too early to know in the days before tests. Marriage was either 14/11/32 or (more generally accepted) 25/1/33. Elizabeth was born 7/9/33.

Has anyone got any good links on all this stuff? Just happened upon this thread and it's all very interesting!

I was reading about genetic sexual attraction the other day and thought of Anne Boleyn. Apparently siblings brought up apart have a 50% chance of being sexually attracted to each other if they meet as adults so maybe.

I also think that maybe the idea it was all propaganda is the same as the idea Richard III was a hunchback was propaganda... Perhaps it was true after all!

She could have been pregnant if the actual marriage was the latter of those two dates.

That's only 7 1/2 months between the January marriage and the September birth.

Why are there two dates? I suppose it could be quite convenient to say "Oh yes, we actually got married last November, not January," when your child is born 7 months later.

Yeah, but you wouldln't have KNOWN you were pregnant until you'd missed two periods in those days.

Marriage was secret as he was still married to KofA although seeking an anulment - which wiped out the first marriage as if it had never been, meaning there was no bigamy. In Henry's eyes, anyway.

I thought AB was preggers hence the need for H8 to get an an annulment from KA so he could marry AB and the baby born legitimate

I have nothing learned to add to the debate except that I think she didn't sleep with her brother and that as others have said Lady Rochford came up with this accusation under pressure from Cromwell, as a sure fire way of ensuring Anne would have to be done away with.

I just wanted to say, to those who watched Wolf Hall, I loved the line when Lady Rochford is telling Cromwell and he says 'do you want me to write this down?' and she replies 'why? do you think you will forget it?' LOL

I think she was too clever to have been unfaithful. IMO, she made two mistakes. First was to assume that fidelity was enough and that it was ok to be boisterous and flirty and a bit lippy towards Henry. Second mistake was the most crucial; she underestimated Cromwell and made an enemy of him.

For a queen to be unfaithful it was considered treason
If a high born woman slept with a musician (considered the lowest form of life) it was considered shocking and "slumming it"

These 2 things alone would have had any husband looking for an annulment then.

Throw in incest and - you've got Cromwell making sure something will stick.

I think Henry knew it was rubbish, hence the swordsman being hired in to make it quick (she should have been burned at the stake officially).

Lady Rochester - well she was just out for herself.

HappyGoLuckyGirl they talked about the possibility in the recent programme on Anne Boleyn, it might still be on iplayer. I think Philippa Gregory likes the idea - but then she probably would, wouldn't she .

Having watched the portrayal of Anne on WH I think she might've. Henry was beginning to stray (Seymour) and the romance between them was dead. She had seen how Catherine had been sent to convent-ry, which will have horrified Anne regarding her own future, and an heir was her only option to secure her position.

I don't suppose she was gagging for her brother though.

Also, it turns out that the royal line has been illegitimate since John of Gaunt, so high borns do muck about when they fancy.