Henry VIII, eh? What a bastard.

[TunipTheVegemal]

I just feel there should be an ongoing thread on what a vile piece of work Henry VIII was where people can leave their opinions on the complete and utter appallingness of Henry VIII.

Of course, this being Mumsnet someone will probably come along and say IABVU and he was actually very nice.

(What sparked this off, btw, was me discovering that the Pilgrimage of Grace marched past where my house is, having mustered troops a mile away. Now every time I have to go into the garden at night I will imagine rotting corpses swinging from the trees - he had some of the rebels hanged in their own back gardens and some women got into trouble for cutting down their husband's bodies when they were supposed to leave them there to rot as a warning. What a bastard.)

[Salbertina]

Love all this debate about such a colourful time in history!

For royal heir to marry older brother's widow, fairly standard at the time and strategically motivated- C of A was royal also and worth heroine those useful ties w Spain

As for Anne B, I also believe she was much more pawn than arch-manipulator, she was a woman after all and under the influence of her scheming brother/father. Certain women would commonly be labelled "whores" at the time regardless of evidence. This does not mean A was adulterous - indeed such I remember Starkey saying evidence against her was fabricated. not nice- inappropriate to call her a whore in here, IMHO...

[Fuchzia]

I think I've read somewhere that all of Henry's wives where descended from John of Gaunt. Smells Presumably that's with the exception of C of A tho? Not sure why that would be significant or who he was really. .

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

You called?

She could well be, fuchzia, he married Constanza of Castile.

I will check.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

John of Gaunt m. Constance of Castile; daughter Catherine

Catherine m. Henry III of Castile, children Maria queen of Aragon, infanta Catharine; John II of Castile

John II of Castile; children inc. Isabella of Castile

Isabella of Castile m. Ferdinand of Aragon; children inc. Catherine!

So John of Gaunt was her great-great grandfather, is that right?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Ooh. Sorry for triple post, but I wondered about Anne of Cleves and stumbled across this site, which is awesome.

www.thetudorswiki.com/page/Ancestors+of+Anne+of+Cleves

[Vagaceratops]

John of Gaunt is the line which Margaret Beaufort (Henry V1.I mother) descended from too isnt it.

[Vagaceratops]

Thats Henry VII

[BalloonSlayer]

Think I read somewhere that Henry had some sort of genetic disease - can't remember now what, but that it a) led to him only having a living 1st born with each wife

• how can a man's genetic disease make it only be a firstborn who survives? I can just about accept that a man can have a genetic disease that means a lot of his children die but one that picks the first born? And also, Mary was not the firstborn. Prince Henry, her older brother lived for a couple of months.
  

Alison Weir (love her book!) wondered whether Anne Boleyn was Rhesus negative, as it was odd that she had her first baby (usually the most dfifficult) relatively easily and then could never carry another to term.

noblegiraffe I had never noticed this before Alison Weir pointed it out, and then I can see it - Elizabeth I looks exactly like Anne Boleyn facially. It's the red hair that makes you think she looks like Henry. That would explain why Lettuce Knolly's looks like her. AW also points out that Henry always acknowledged his illegitimate children, and gave them titles, married them off well. He never did with Mary's children, which suggests they were not his. However, that may have been because that would have proved he had shagged Anne's sister, and his brother having supposedly shagged Catherine was what he claimed made his marriage to Catherine unlawful . . . but then again in that case you'd think he'd have used that to get out of his marriage with Anne... aaargh!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think John of Gaunt is basically related to everybody, isn't he? It comes of living a very long time and marrying women whose children, um, didn't tend to die.

[Vagaceratops]

Earlier in history, many powerful kings would claim that consanguinity meant thier marriages should be invalidated. Mainly when the first wives could not produce a male heir.

Its this reason that Eleanor of Aquitaine used to get out of her marriage to Louis and marry Henry II. The fact that she was a woman and still managed to use this to her advantage is another reason that she is one of my absolute favourite female historical figures.

[Vagaceratops]

The Beaufort line is illegitimate though iirc.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

No, his children were legitimized later on.

[Smellslikecatspee]

Re: C of A marring Henry after Arthur, I can see where it makes good political sense but as they had to get the papal dispensation was it that common? I know engagements were broken all the time. About the behaviour change after the fall head injury or realisation of own morality?

[Vagaceratops]

Yes you are right - just went up to check.

I always think JoG is very handsome.

[MadamGazelleIsMyMum]

Vaga Without wanting to derail the threat, agree, she was one amazing woman.

The Antonia Fraser 6 Wives of Henry VIII has a geneological chart at the start showing how Henry was actually related to all of his wives to a greater or lesser degree, mainly on the basis that the English nobility of the time was a small section of society much intermarried. Catherine of Aragon had a dash of English Plantaganet blood from John of Gaunt.

[MadamGazelleIsMyMum]

Engagements were broken all the time, Smells, Henry VIII's younger sister Mary was bethrothed something like 6 times before she actually married Louis XII of France.

I think the reasons for the marriage were partly to keep the alliance with Spain, partly to keep the dowry (although this may have been forfeit if the marriage with Arthur had been consummated, hence Henry VII's reasons for seeking the ambiguous dispensation with the word "fortisan" i.e. perhaps, the same dispensation which allowed Henry VIII many years later to challenge his wife's virgin status at the time of their marriage), partly as a two fingered gesture to his Dad who had kept him very much on a short leash, and also because Henry VIII probably did see CofA as a romantic bride he had rescued - he was obsessed with chivalry and would have known CofA since he was 10, when she arrived in England as a beautiful princess.

There are examples of marrying a younger brother much more recently as well though. May of Teck, old Queen Mary, married George V after her engagement to his elder brother ended due to the elder brother's death.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Papal dispensations are very common because everyone is related to everyone.

I think I prefer the 'realization of mortality' thing - that makes sense, I never thought of it.

[TunipTheVegemal]

wow, can't believe how much this thread has grown overnight! I thought it would just be me and one or two weirdos

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

But I am a weirdo.

[margerykemp]

Did Henry already have his ulcer when AB was executed?

Did he expect that to kill him so was in a hurry to remarry?

I'm surprised on a Tudor thread no one has mentioned poor Lady Jane Grey yet. Now she really was a pawn.

Was Margaret of Beaufort the one who tried to make a run for it during her botched execution? Was it Henry who ordered that?

Another question for you Tudorites: did Queen Mary have contact/show support for her Catholic cousin Mary, Queen of Scots during her reign?

If Mary 1 had Elizabeth executed, as she had the power to do, instead of letting Elizabeth live and then execute MQoS would Britain be a Catholic country now or would have James 1/V11 still have been protestant?

[LiviaAugusta]

I've read something interesting somewhere about the year 1536 being a turning point in Henry's life and descent into tyranny. During a very short space of time CofA died (whom he'd been married to for over twenty years so it must have affected him), he had a jousting accident which left him unconscious for a time and permanently injured and in pain, and then AB delivered a son stillborn. Obviously before this he'd had his marriage annulled and married AB so it's not all stemming from there but it does make me wonder whether something 'snapped' to turn a previously vain, egocentric man who'd been raised to be a prince and not a king into what he became in his last ten years.

[TunipTheVegemal]

I can't believe people have been slagging off my beloved Thomas More! Derailers! I am going to keep on believing he was exactly like he is in Man For All Seasons, no matter what anyone says

[Penelope1980]

I really wonder what the everyday people actually thought of Henry VIII and his wives. I know it would have changed during his reign, but does anyone know or have there been any surviving records? I don't imagine there's anything really, but just wondering..

[TunipTheVegemal]