Who could help my dd prepare for Oxford application?

[msripley]

DD is at a state comprehensive and sitting AS levels this year in English Literature, History and Spanish.

She's predicted As plus an A in the Welsh Baccalaureate and has her sights set on applying to Oxford to study either law with Spanish or Spanish, possibly in conjunction with linguistics.

She definitely needs to develop her interview/debating skills, and her school has been very poor at supporting this - e.g. a group of sixth formers have been asking for help in setting up a debating society since September and nothing has happened (I've been nagging her just to set it up herself too, but to be fair she's been up to her eyes with coursework and work experience).

Anyway, we feel it would benefit her to have some tutoring from someone who could help her with the skills she'd need for the application process to begin with, and then in practising interview skills... the kind of thing that I suspect pupils from private schools will have had help with. She's in Welsh-medium education which has many advantages, but it does mean she's not quite as practised at marshalling arguments in English.

We debate extensively at home too, but have no experience of the Oxford process and the level that she needs to be at.

Does anyone have any advice? We live in Cardiff but would be prepared to travel.

tia!

I think you may be overestimating the amount of preparation that many independent school pupils get for university/Oxbridge entrance. At DS1's school (25% of year group normally goes on to Oxford/Cambridge) the preparation consisted of:
Y12 one day interview exercise for all Y12s of hia school and girls' school where parents interviewed students - scenario was a competition for a Rotary type travelling scholarship.
Y13 - Oxbridge entrants - 45 minute interview with parent/friend of school who had taken that subject at university, followed by feed back.

DH has been involved in mock interviews at DS's school and can tell relatively easily who will get in - those with a real interest in the subject with excellent analytical skills.

So ability to show a real interest in Spanish literature and culture beyond the A Level course and ability to coherently discuss such things as censorship "Would you have banned Mein Kampf?" for the law course. Much of this can be done round the dinner table at home, but I can appreciate that it is useful to prepare with a teacher.

crumbs. I was private school, and never had interview coaching.
what language do you use at home?
There was a v good thread on this subject about 2 yrs ago, have you looked through past threads?

Thanks for your replies, interesting - perhaps I have overestimated the preparation that the private sector offers, although I suspect the skills she needs to develop may be more integral to the overall package of education privately.

I just don't think dd's school is geared up for Oxbridge preparation at all - for instance, there's no suggestion even of the limited amount of preparation that Lilymaid has cited.

I'll have a trawl of past threads now.

We speak almost all English at home - dh isn't a Welsh-speaker.

I went to Oxford from a 'bog-standard' state school with no preparation offered for the exam/interview. The interviewers will be aware that there is a wide range of preparation offered and will try to run the interviews so that those with preparation don't have an unfair advantage and will try to see through any 'polish' that preparation may give. IME the main thing that preparation gives is confidence - you don't want this to be the first time that her views have been challenged by someone who is in a position of 'authority'. For that reason it can be good to do practice interviews/discussions with family friends and teachers. If she knows what to expect it will be much easier for her to relax and be herself and to show what she can do. I would suggest that the single best thing she can do is to go to an open day. Look now, they'll be end of June/early July or so with a few more in Sep.

As an aside Oxford does not run a Law and Spanish course. It runs Law and Spanish Law which is very different. Whilst you need to know Spanish to study Spanish Law and you get a year in Spain, the focus is very much on the Law of Spain rather than the language (and certainly not the literature).

DH had an interview with cambridge - i think the key things were -

1. why do you want to the subject
2. why do you want to do it here?
3. talk about your Duke of Edinburgh Gold.....

His headmaster had written the wrong reference (it was actually a ref for his friend who was also applying!)

he didn't get in.

the state school i went to did prep lessons from the beginning of sixth form to help give the kids the confidence to do the interview.

the people who got in generally not only had grades, but were doing some oustanding out of school stuff too (teaching in vietnam, polar expedition, etc..)

There are a couple of books on Oxbridge entrance
www.amazon.co.uk/So-You-Want-Oxbridge-Banana/dp/0955079713
www.amazon.co.uk/Oxbridge-Entrance-Rules-Elfi-Pallis/dp/0954594444/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=12 73997362&sr=1-1

which I've read and would recommend.

Some people say that having extra curriculum activities in different spheres
-leadership
-music/drama
-sport
-community/voluntary work

helps but others disagree and say having a knowledge and passion for your subject, demonstating reading above and beyond the syllabus is the most important thing.

Doesn't her school have an Oxbridge tutor?

The main thing for Oxbridge is to show passion for subject (along with academic excellence). She needs to have a productive summer! Can she get some work experience in a legal practice? Is she going to Spain?

My DD is at Cambridge having attended a comprehensive. Her teacher gave her one (or possibly 2 ) practise interviews and wrote a srong reference. This was for Mediaval and Modern languages.

I agree with the points above - the student must have real passion for the subjects, an independent mind and not be thrown by any question asked, or piece of work shown to them 5 mins before the interview, and asked to comment on it.

The extra-curricular material does help I think, but its not the main thing. The selection panel want to see evidence of high potential and a big focus on the academic side.

I think it salso important to go for Oxbridge in the spirit of it not being the be-all-and-end-all. Its not the right place for everyone and if a student is turned down it is porbably correct. It is a tough academic environment and very pressurised at times. So a strong second and third choice of uni. is vital.

Many thanks for all the advice here. No, her school doesn't have an Oxbridge tutor - they're pretty crap on the support for this tbh, which is why I'm trying to gather as much advice as I can myself, and also try to find someone who could help her with practise interviews.

She has already done some legal work experience and is arranging more. She'll be able to practise her Spanish this summer too.

And sandripples, she's very much of the opinion that Oxford isn't the be-all-and-end-all - she'll be going to an open day there, but is also very interested in UCL and Sheffield and thinks somewhere possibly more multicultural might be a place she'd prefer.

I think the best thing to do is to go to a subject specific open day at Oxford if you can. I went to the Maths one with DD2 last week and it was really helpful for finding out what they are looking for in prospective candidates. They were happy to answer any questions and the most useful ones were "What do you wear for the interview?"(Answer: anything) and "How do you prepare between now and the interview?" (Answer: Do lots of Maths!) They were very transparent about the whole process and DD2 feels she'll have a go.

This link is quite helpful - it has people who have applied to Oxbridge and info about
their interviews:
www.oxbridge-admissions.info/profiles.php

I think if you can get an understanding of what is required for your DD's subject then you can ask the school for specific help. DD2 will be asking her further maths teacher,for a mock maths interview nearer the time just so she's had some practice in an academic interview situation.

OK, I think UCL sounds great. My DD was keen on it too but I was worried about London as we live in a small town, and also London costs! Sheffield is a popular choice here ( we live in the NW) and the students seem to love it, from what I hear. Good luck wherever she goes.

We also found the open days useful BTW. (I went to one of them and loved it! Our school advises letting the students do most open days on their own though as its good practise for getting about in the world!)

I think the most important skill to both get in, and almost more importantly fit in, is simply to be able to talk with confidence. I know that sounds really simplistic, but actually I felt it was the thing I struggled most with - and I got in, and got my degree - as I always felt I could express myself better in writing and I think quite a lot of academic kids are the same. The tutors are good at recognising the difference between nerves and lack of ability, but obviously if you're a bit practised at it it will feel easier.

It's a shame the debating hasn't worked out at school, but is there anything extra-curricular that would interest her? As you're in Cardiff a quick google of Junior Welsh assembly turned up this which might be of interest, and with the law/Spanish connection could be an interesting career development potential with the European Parliament etc.

Or what about Amnesty International - at 17 she's definitely old enough to get involved - their front page of the Junior Urgent Action section for example mentions campaigns for the rights of Street children in South America, which would be a good fit with her combination of law and Spanish.

Whatever it is, I think it's got to be a genuine interest - but having something of interest to write about on a personal statement and discuss in an interview means they are more likely to spend time on that and throw her some curveball question IYSWIM! The old chestnuts of sport, music, DofE etc are still valid, but if you have an unusual interest or one that relates to the subject you would like to study then that gives the interviewers something to pick up on.

The other important thing is to read newspapers, especially anything related to EU and Spanish politics/law reform etc (even the Economist and/or New Statesman if she can bear it!). And watch/listen to informed debate - Question Time, the Culture Show, Radio 4 etc. If you're a debating type of family that's fab, and then you can argue about it at home/ in the car etc as you go a long and give her lots of practice in forming and expressing her opinions.

Long, sorry, but HTH

Thanks sandripples - we have no intention of going with her to the open days - she may go along with some friends to Sheffield, and the school is taking a few of them to Oxford (so I might be a bit harsh in saying the school is not supporting them, I'd forgotten about that!).

I have some concerns about how 'dodgy' the area around UCL might be as a place to live and travel around - but the main thing is for her to go somewhere she feels she'll fit in and enjoy studying. She loves London (we have a niece who lives there, dd has stayed with her a few times) and I suspect she might think Oxford won't compare in the fashion stakes!

Webwiz - that link is great, thanks!

Dd really needs to decide first what it is she wants to study - definitely languages but she needs more experience of law before she's sure that's what she is going to go for. I'm very conscious of how quickly time is going and she knows how much she'll need to focus/read over the summer - AS level exams starting tomorrow are her main priority for now.

30andMerkin, thanks, some excellent advice there. I do worry about her lack of sophistication - there are so many more distractions than there were at my age - I used to listen to Radio 4 all the time, whereas she's a Radio 1 girl.

One thing that I had myself (state grammar, 5 or 6 to Oxbridge each year) was they arranged a mock interview for me at the local uni (Kent) - the tutor was the dad of a boy at our own school. That was much more help than anything specifically "Oxford" (the guidance was provided there by 3 teachers, two of whom had been rejected from Oxbridge and one who had got in and then come away with a third ...)

The other thing I would say is that she should be aware that, for Spanish, there will be a large literature requirement and she should be ready for that and "reading around" whatever she is doing at school, in the case of Spanish in the original language as far as possible. The main thing that Oxbridge interviews examine is whether you are actually genuinely curious about your subject or whether you stop thinking about it when the bell rings at 3.30.

Don't over-analyse it - remember that state school pupils are actually in the majority at Oxford (though not by as much as they should be proportionally) and that the tutors have long experience of guessing how good a 21-year-old scholar you will be based on your nervous 17-year-old self.

Id say forget it if your child hasn't been privately educated with all the extra interview help that entails.
Both my DC (2) went to local low achieving comp and then local 6th forms and both are Oxbridge rejects having each had interviews at Cambridge and Oxford respectively
Eldest child about to graduate with a first (from his year 2 & 3 results and good final year exams) from a top UK university.
As my eldest says the younger one will have a lot more fun and get a top degree from a top university.

definitely, definitely worth applying
In my experience and judgement, the single most important thing, the only thing really, that Oxbridge is looking for is a really fine mind. Academic potential, academic achievement (though not a whole bank of A*) and the ability to cope under a certain amount of pressure.
don't worry about the situation with private schools, the important thing is that she focuses her attention on what SHE is interested in and does loads of reading around that subject. really immerse herself in that, and have debates and conversations with teachers and other adults about it.
use whatever resources you have - YOU and you dh should talk to her, challenge her, get her used to discussing, articulating, arguing. Get her to use her subject teachers as a resource. Do you have a family friend or neighbour that she could talk to?
the tutors will be looking for someone who seems like they would enjoy being there. That means being not afraid to put the academic boot in, being really passionate about something and being able to think and talk about it.
DofE, building toilets in Nepal, et etc is just ancillary to that.
good luck to her, I hope she succeeds.

Your dd also needs to think how she would feel about the different methods of study and assessment - might be something to ask questions about at open days/to students.

Get her to do an extended piece of reading/research over the summer on a subject she is interested in. E.g. a Spanish author or a legal issue. Then she needs to mention it in her personal statement.

At interview she needs to be prepared to discuss that topic. They will want to see that she has pursued her studies outside of the confines of A-level, that she's capable of independent study, and that she has genuine intellectual curiosity.

I just wanted to answer your worries about the area around UCL. Yes 15 to 20 years ago it was pretty dodgy. 2 Years in intercollegiate halls there IRA taxi bomb in street behind halls, IRA safe house busted by 30 armed police in another street next to halls, Summers Towns riots, the vice crime the drugs etc. Some how I survived unscathed and I have to say loved every minute of it.
However, in the last 10 years the area has undergone a massive regeneration with the building of the new british library and the eurostar terminal at St Pancras. Though the biggest indication for me is the supermarket in Brunswick Gardens that was a Kwiksave when I was there is now a Waitrose.
However, London is a large city and like any large city be it London, Sheffield, where ever you need to know how to keep yourself safe.
I originally wanted to go to Cambridge didn't get a place. Didn't get an offer from Glasgow my next choice, got RVC, London (just round the corner from UCL). It was the best decision I ever made I got to spend three years living in our vibrant capital city. I experienced sooooo much more of life than just university. Had fab saturday job working in Harrods that meant I left without horrific student debt.

I don't think the area around UCL is particularly dodgy - not for London certainly. I was an undergrad there in the early 80s and revisit the area regularly as a friend still teaches there. I did my postgrad at Cambridge - London is certainly an entirely different experience to Oxbridge, although the otgher place is much bigger and more city-like than Cambridge. I loved London - and prefer UCL to Kings or Imperial(not that I'm biased ). London is a fantastic place to be a student - better than working there.

Definitely apply to Oxford if keen, but don't be down-hearted if you have to 'settle' for one of the other top universities.

I know this is a bit late but she won't have had her interview yet (unless things have changed dramatically since 2006?!) so thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Oxbridge: I graduated Cambridge in 2009 and tbh did go to a grammar, but a pretty standard one with no interview training etc. It seemed to me (and my partner who went to Oxford concurs) that they are looking for enthusiasm, aptitude and potential in your chosen subject.

I made a million 'mistakes' in my interview, at one point the interviewer was shaking his head and saying, "You clearly have not been reading the right books" - they don't expect perfection.

Also, Oxbridge in the 21st century is certainly not closed to people from 'different' backgrounds i.e. not private schools. My partner went to a comp, I did English having completely rejected novels, one of my best friends came from a London inner city comp.

The best advice I could give: make them want to teach you. If they want to teach you, they'll want to admit you.

Oxford is a pretty multi-cultural place btw! I would suggest passion is a good thing to have (preferably for your subject).

I went to a state comprehensive, ended up at Oxford and got a First. I'm now doing a PhD there.

Don't bother with any of the "getting your kid into oxford books". They're mostly bullshit. Tutors don't care about how many extra-curriculars little joe does. They care about the fact he/she's going to spend 70 hours a week in the library and get a first class degree. If your kid is clever enough and gets that across in interview, then they'll get a place.

Oh, and background is (usually) taken into account at interview. The same standard is not expected of some kid who went to a dodgy inner city comp as the kid from Eton.

very late comment here - but having interviewed applicants in Oxford - I would say choose your college v. v. carefully. Ultimately an interview is highly subjective - if it were me I would steer away from some of the bigger more popular colleges and check out if you can anything about the tutors she would be interviewed by. They will see her application. I think there is a distinct element of lottery about it all. It is true that passion and incisiveness are key. But some tutors are more likely to be on a state school kid's side.