Considering studying law - any experiences very welcome!

[gloriana]

I have long had an interest in law and am now considering studying a part-time law conversion course. Has anyone done this and if you have, your words of wisdom would be most welcome! I have 3 DS' (aged 8,7 and 3) and am worried that they would suffer (really because I would be more stressed than usual if have stuff to do for course as well as everything else).

Also, it seems so much to commit to - 2 years part time study, then 2 more years and then a training contract. I'll be 41 by then - that's assuming anyone would employ me!

Any advice/experience much appreciated!

Hi
I started a p/t law conversion at a brick uni 6 years ago but left after a year for reasons including non-support to p/t students. I think they were just running it as a money-spinner.
I am now doing law through the OU which I cannot recommend highly enough for p/t study. Their course is excellent. There is regular tutor support and your deadlines are spaced out which I find helps a lot when juggling family life.
I get the impression that quite a few people go into law as a second career so age probably not a huge barrier.
I have a childminder twice a week to give me time to study, I know I wouldn't be able to concentrate with the kids around and would find that vv stressful.
But I think studying and trying to further your career sets a good example to your children. Go for it.
Good luck.

Thanks so much Glasgal - nice to know it can be done! I looked at the OU course and thought it looked v good as well as being supportive to p/t (they must know what they're doing when it comes to people studying from home!). I also looked at College of Law as I'm in London so would be fairly easy for me to get to. Also they do p/t where you can go in for face to face at the weekends. Do you think the C of L would be similar to the brick uni you were at and not supportive of p/t?

Also a friend of mine told me her mother did a law degree when she was 8 and she has never forgotten that her mother 'disappeared' for the time of her degree. Are your children quite supportive of what you do?

Thanks so much for sharing your experience and well done for getting so far :-)

Hi Gloriana

I was one of the first intake to the the C of L distance learning conversion course 15 years ago At the time I only had the 2 children, one preschooler and the other in infants I really enjoyed the stimulation of returning to study and used a childminder one day a week and relied on DH at the weekends( I was a SAHM) and also did a lot of child care swapping.But I remember revising for exams and aranging child care around the exam timetable being very stressful.

I alos developed very focused working habits and didn' t waste any time if I could study instead.This has proved a very useful skill to put ona CV btw

However I did not go onto to do the legal practice course as I became pregnant with dd3 and then DC4

The time was not wasted though as it really boosted my self confidence in that tough post baby slump i went through and it also led to my current job. ( non law )

hi gloriana How are your plans going wrt this? I've been flailing for some time trying to find a new direction and I think Law is the direction I wish to go in. I'm looking at the University of London external programme over 4 years. I'm working full time, pregnant and 36. So I'll be 40 by the time I graduate and then further training to do... On the up side my partner will be a "Mostly" SAHD which takes a lot of pressure off.

Hi Ski and Gloriana

I did a p/t (evening course) post grad law conversion in London before having my daughter but I was working full time for the 2 years and it was a struggle - the work isn't particularly difficult (apart from Trust law during which I almost lost the will to live) but it is very full on in terms of the amount of reading and information you have to take in, caselaw you have to memorize and essays you have to write. I felt like I had no time to myself and every spare moment (lunch breaks, weekends and evening) spent cramming in the work needed for the next lesson. It was interesting though but I found I needed a lot of motivation and organisation to get me through. The next stage of study called the Legal Practice Course (which I did at the college of law in London)is far less intense though and much more practical.

I have found that more 'mature' law graduates are quite desirable in terms of training contract places - many firms are attracted to people who have had careers and life experience before law rather than taking on a spotty 23 year old who has never had more than a summer job before! I would say though that being a solicitor is not particularly family friendly, especially if you want to work part time - part of the reason I no longer practice!

I don't want to put you off - the law can be really interesting and exciting - just make sure it is really what you want to do before embarking on a journey into law because it is a long hard slog!

Thank you twinkletoes for taking the time to respond.

I'm surprised you say it's not particularly family friendly - one of the reasons I'm interested in going in this direction is that by the time I'm 50 I'd like to be working for myself, you know, dictating my own hours. Would this really not be possible?

Sorry to butt in - I am a solicitor (ex-Magic Circle, now at a large regional) and in answer to your question re: law being family friendly I think the options for family-friendly work in this area are exceptionally limited. There ARE options (e.g. government legal service, which offers lots of part-time/jobshare/flexi arrangements - but is almost exclusively based in London atm) but they are highly competitive options and there will be a lot of other people wanting them.

I am not sure what you mean by working for yourself by age 50? What do you envisage doing within the legal profession where you work for yourself and dictate your own hours?? Would you set up as a sole practitioner? Personally I think it would be madness, and exceptionally stressful to do this - and there is no way you would be dictating your own hours, I think you'll find your clients do that!!! I don't think law is the most obvious choice for someone who wants to work for themselves to be honest - aside from barristers who work for themselves, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

I think you perhaps need to find out more about the legal profession and do some work placements. From what you've said, I think you really have no idea what the reality of it is like and you MUST find out before you commit years of your life and thousands of pounds to training for a profession that is not remotely what you think it is. Happy to try and help with any questions you might have on the specifics.

On the plus side, being 40 when you start a training contract would be no disadvantage whatsoever, the legal world is very welcoming to those with a bit of life experience and your age won't hold you back one bit.

Hi, I am a solicitor and now work in legal careers.

We have a lot of mature students, there are loads of p/t options weekend, evenings and wk days that you can do.

But I do think you need to be realistic, there are law courses and law courses (some of which are more sought of than others IFYSWIM). A GDL and then LPC is a lot of money (up to 20 thousand pounds) and at the end of it there is no guarantee that you will get a training contract.

Also as a mature student your experience is important but so are academics. If you have a third class degree and / or weak A levels you are fighting a losing battle to get a Training Contract. Things are tough at the moment, we have fresh faced graduates with 2.1, straight A's who cannot get Training Contracts and are stuck doing low paying paralegal jobs. Of course things might/will pick up but we don't think the law market will quite return to the boom years of five years ago!

Do some research:

• lawcareers.net - details of law firms / training contract
• rollonfriday.co.uk - legal gossip
• lawyer2be.co.uk - online version of lawyer
• chambers student - information on different types of law

What sort of lawyer do you see yourself as ?

• corporate
• commercial
• family
• crime
• legal aid
• local authority
• barrister

Thank you for the advice (both of you). I personally don't see any reason why I shouldn't work for myself (aged 50) - a close friend does exactly that - and in the same line of work I'm looking at.

I don't envisage getting a training contract to be too hard either as my cousin is partner in a huge practice! Lucky me!

Do you need to do it part time? It would be much quicker to get it done over 2 years. I've children who've done it full time and I don't think the full time hours are that bad. Loads of people work for themselves.

There is an argument not to start until you have the TC in advance. Can your cousin's firm not sponsor you full time on the GDL/LPC over 2 years and then hire you as a trainee?

I did a full time law degree. I found it really difficult to get a job afterwards, the LPC is really expensive. I really liked studying for the degree, I found the cases really interesting and was really keen to use what I had learnt, it was really different once I finally did manage to find a job though, the hours were far from family friendly, the person I worked for would turn up at 3pm with a list of things that needed doing in 2 hours, I rarely left at 5 and would spend the whole 2 hours worrying and rushing to get things finished so I could collect ds, it seemed really silly as I'd spent the rest of the day doing nothing (maybe some photocopying)until she turned up (on my last day I even sent an email around the office asking if anyone needed anything doing, then I was fired for having a bad attitude towards work ). I found it really disheartening that I had spent three and a half years at uni to be honest, all I was doing was writing letters and filling in forms. I don't know if this is the normal graduate experience, I really do suggest you do some work experience first to make sure it's really what you want.

Oh dear, poor Belle. Were you a trainee solicitor? It is virtually impossible to sack a trainee solicitor I think.

Xenia I would need to do the initial LLB part-time as I just don't have the opportunity to study full-time unless I move back to the UK and go on benefits! The GDL/LPC would be done full-time - and of course that's a great idea re: sponsorship - thank you!

I do understand that some employers can be "difficult" - perhaps this is where I might be "stronger". I'm not some 22 year old fresh out of college expecting everything to go my way. I've been around the block a bit in the corporate world.

Are you SURE your cousin would employ you though? If its a huge practice, the other partners will all have a say and it might be harder for your cousin to persuade them than you think

This thread is really interesting. I am very interested in law as a 2nd career, but have held back because of the career and training opportunities.
I have a lot of detailed technical knowledge around telecoms/computers, but I dont know if this could be used in a legal job.

I recently had a terrible experience, of paying 700 pounds to a firm of solicitors (they demanded payment up front, and it was an urgent situation), to prepare a court application that the judge wouldn't even accept, because she (the judge) said it was so much against my interests to even put this application in. By a stroke of luck, I then got a good solicitor, who prepared teh correct application, and discovered that I had the right to have it for free.
the whole situation only arose, because some previous legal work, that cost me circa 3500 pounds, had not been properly done.
Transfer that incompetence into an engineering situation, and the product wouldnt work!

It's huge (not London! ), there's one other partner.

Right now they take on 7 trainees a year, which isn't too bad for where they're based considering the current economic climate - I should image that by the time I'm there in 2014 things will be different. If it's not him, then I'll find an in elsewhere - I'm resourceful, bright and I will bring many qualities which I don't expect a 22 year old to have. I have been told over and over that someone with real life experience will be a real asset.

I'm very curious as to why you're so negative though about someone wanting to change career.

nighbynight I too am coming from a telecoms/IT background - and I'll be damned if I'm still doing it in another 20 years! One of the final triggers for me to go down this route is that I've been sued this year by a solicitor (!) - the case has been bouncing to-and-fro the judge now since December and I am absolutely appalled by her mistakes, the contradictions in black and white in e.g., a single paragraph - she denies, admits, denies again all within 250 words!

ME being negative? Sorry I wasn't, I just didn't wnat you to place all your future on your cousin possibly giving you a TC

Have worked in solicitors offices for years nad in teh big firms, NOBODY gets a tc due ot being rlated to a partner

skihorse - thats just it, as engineers we are used to a much higher standard! lol

MamaG - it may not lead to the place I want it to - but indeed, if there were no guarantees in place would anyone ever set out on the path they do?

nighbynight Used to (expect!) higher standards - used to sorting out the shite of those who are unable to deliver! As for the case in which I'm currently embroiled : a) I'm not fluent in the language it's being done in, b) I'm not a solicitor but I still know she's giving the judge a crock of shit haha. I wouldn't (as an engineer) deliver this quality to my customer - I'm just really amazed that she would deliver this to a judge. Stunned really. And... dare I say it? The LLB looks like a piece of piss compared to a BEng!

Xenia I was hired as a legal assistant as I was planning on doing the LPC part time so I could work to pay for it. It was a bad start to be honest, I wasn't even shown around or told who my line manager was, the only induction I had was at a different office telling me how to use the billing system on the computer. I was supposto be working with 2 different people, the one wouldn't turn up until 3pm, the other one wouldn't show me/allow me to do anything as it was 'quicker to do it herself'.

The better firms will pay 100% of your fees full time on the GDL and LPC and an annual allowance of £5 - £7ik a year. You get those trainee jobs in advance of staring the GDL so you know everything is paid for in advance. That is the best basis to start the GDL. You know you';ve a job at the end of it. Loads of people ont hose courses have those jobs arranged and are funded by their firms. There is an argument that if you are not good enough to get your training contract in advance of starting the GDL: then it is a massive risk to start the GDL at all. Get the firm with the relative in to take you on work experience/ or just interview you and take you on as a trainee for 2 years' hence - the good firms all recruit 2 and more years ahead - there are rules about how early they may recruit and then they will pay your law school fees direct.

If no firm will hire you now as a tarinee for 2 years hence because exam results are very poor or no personal skills in interivew and all the other 1001 reasons why it's hard to be hired then that's when people need to stop and think

Belle, sounds difficult. The biggest firms are better than that but they have a different system anyway as I describe above. I have also know lots of mature entrants who also follow what I describe ahead. Work experience 3 or 4 years ahead and then get a TC which funds them full time for the 2 years. Most people are not good enough to get those though like anything difficult and hard to get into but if you've a relative who will give you a trainee job in 2 years given how many firms do sponsor trainees do not see why they cannot sponsor you at law school. The very best people get snapped up and he'd be lucky to have you.

I've already done an LLB, I completed it in 2005 so it will be out of date with regards to the Law society regulations. There isn't alot of jobs where I live to be honest and it's really hard getting your foot in the door, I applied to do unpaid work experience but was told by a few that they didn't do this. I worked whilst doing the degree, had problems with ds, had an operation and ended up doing my own employment tribunal settlement, I'm shocked I finished it to be honest. I would have really loved a job in employment or family.

Well anyone can offer legal advice in the UK. You don't need to be qualified except for some areas like going to court so nothing to stop you setting up as a legal adviser I think just like any of us can be a life coach or therapist. As long as you don't use the word solicitor or doctor or nurse or other prescribed words you're okay. I moved to get work although I accept that's hard with children.

For others the route to trying to get the sponsorship does make it easier though. A friend's son just got it and starts the GSL in September. He's really pleased because the next 4 years are sorted out and paid for. They sent me flowers when all I'd done is speak to his father for about 10 minutes about law careers. It's an easier way to do it if you can get the jobs and there's a recession so it's fairly hard although I think it's getting slightly better now.

I've set out what my experience has been during my time as a lawyer both in a regional and a magic circle firm. If you disagree with what I say (based on whatever knowledge & experience you have of the legal profession) then that's fine, I just think your post says things that nobody I know who works in law would think the things you have written so it makes me wonder whether you really know what the legal world is like. Having said that, I've never worked in a 2-partner high street practice so what do I know?

Yes, there are vast numbers of people in all kinds of net works out there. It's brilliant for those for whom it works. You eat what you kill.