French immersion for Oxbridge entry

[thefemaleJoshLyman]

DD is in Y12 and wants to study French and Linguistics at Oxbridge. She hasn't looked at anywhere else yet (but will). She is not a native speaker which makes things harder for her in the competitive application process so I would like to try to organise for some immersion for her next summer. She attends state school so no long private school holidays and we are away until 3rd August (it appears lots of immersion summer schools don't run in August). Has anyone organised an exchange with a French family or have any ideas or experience of similar? I am conscious that she will probably have an interview in French and want her to be able to ace this!

Don't muck about with exchanges, it more than halves the opportunities for your DD to speak French as the exchange student will want to practice English and will probably be better at English than DD is at French (because the language teaching in French schools is generally better) so they will slip into communicating in English by default.

Tbh I'd be just as wary of any group-organised so-called "immersion" services - in a group of english kids they will speak english to each other. You need DD to go and spend the whole of August in France speaking French without a parallel responsibility to help some French kid with their English and without other English people. My sister did this in the summer between y12 and y13 by getting a job for the summer working for a hotel in rural France (not a particularly popular area for english tourists though) where the owners were friends of friends of our parents (and then went on to Oxford uni yes) but that was before Brexit so not sure what the legalities would be now.

The Oxford entrance exam is very grammar heavy - I would suggest she works hard on that more than anything. She’ll need a good score in that to help with her application - they do interview most applicants for languages but obviously their score in the MLAT is important - I’d focus more on that unless her general French needs improving a lot too. My Dd (state school) found the level required in the interview was ok - but the grammar in the MLAT was very tough without a lot of practice (or perhaps her slightly crap teaching at her school didn’t help)
good luck - Dd didn’t get in despite a lot of interviews (4 in total) but is very happy elsewhere now.

I did a summer in France through my uni—spent my time speaking to everyone in English. The only time I spoke French was when we were in class (we went to a language school where we were in French lessons for 3 hours per day), or when I went to shops, but that’s pretty basic how much/please/thank you stuff. So not proper immersion.

We also had our DS do a swap with a work colleague’s nephew. It was pretty bad. At our house, it was clear that the boy was not here by choice, and all he did was take himself off to his bedroom to read—he pretty much refused to interact with us. When it came time for our DS to go to their home, everyone just wanted to practice their English. So not proper immersion.

As PP said upthread, look out for pitfalls—whether they will be surrounded by either English speakers or French speakers who want to practice their English, which is usually very good.

I read French and another language at Oxford - nobody on my course was a native speaker. They're not testing for fluency in the entrance exams - as another poster said, they are mainly testing grammar, at about A Level standard.

Obviously an immersive stay abroad could be great for your DD but it's not necessary - the admissions tutors are keenly aware that not all applicants can afford to do things like that.

Thanks everyone, that all sounds reassuring. I think being in a state school I worry about her not having a level playing field.

I don't think they do MLAT anymore. I would be very confident with her grammar - she loves the technical side of languages.

My DC is currently doing MLL at Oxford from a non selective state school background. She found that actually speaking in the target language was a fairly minimal part of the admissions process. They focused more on linguistics and literature in the target language. I'd say that aiming to read widely both in translation and in the target language would be a better use of her time if she's very focused on Oxford, although of course improving her speaking would never be a bad thing!

Yes agree with @AmberSpy and others – immersion would be great for your DD but is not essential. Sorry I don't have any suggestions for where she might go tho I think the idea of working for the summer is a good one. My understanding as others note is that grammar needs to be excellent for Oxford or Cambridge, but there is absolutely no need to be a native speaker.

I know a YP who studied French and Spanish at Oxford, having attended the very mixed-intake comp where I taught, and then going to study at a local FE college in order to do both MFL. Not a native speaker and I am pretty sure never went on anything of the type you are suggesting @thefemaleJoshLyman, as the family was not well-off at all. She was a brilliant brilliant student tho – dedicated, enthusiastic, off-the-scale smart. All the best to your DD in her prep for this.

DD did a languages residential at Wadham College. Oxford do lots of things like that if your DD is state educated?

I meant to say (but I am sure you will do this) make sure she has other options she genuinely likes. Even for a less-popular subject like MFL, the competition for Oxford and Cambs is high and fewer than half of those who interview will get an offer.

Not true for MML, over half of all applicants get an offer and well over half those interviewed. Of course, getting an offer is one thing, they've still got to get the grades (though this is much easier at Oxford than at Cambridge - a relative of ours had to get an A star in French despite no one in their school ever having achieved this).

Someone told me that French and German are so incredibly unpopular at state schools that you're almost guaranteed an offer as a boy applying to one of these - state educated, esp non-grammar non-native speaking, boys are unicorns in these departments.

Here are the stats for MML & Linguistics. The offer rate is high for Oxford certainly, but not over half.

My DD is studying Spanish and linguistics at Lancaster and native speakers aren't actually allowed on the course although I have no idea how they check this and maybe Oxford is different?

I don't think any course expects new language undergraduates to be anywhere near fluent and the usual advice is for A level students to listen to podcasts, radio, watch films and tv etc. in their chosen language. No need to actually go and live in the country for a while.

What I would say is that my DD fell apart in the speaking part of the A level and it dragged her grade down (but luckily Lancaster still accepted her) so practise speaking with other students as much as possible.

Good luck to your DD, mine is loving her course, currently learning how to code, something she never thought she'd enjoy.

Get her to watch french tv shows on Netflix

Ah yes, French immersion is vital OP. It will make a massive difference. I have a degree in an MFl and got a 1st (native English speaker, no foreign relatives). The key is total immersion. I had pen
friends abroad and stayed with them. Staying witb a family is ideal because it forces you to speak the language plus you are surrounded by it. Can you get something organised the Easter holidays as well as the summer? Two weeks staying with a family always used to bring my listening comprehension ability forward by something like a year and my speaking ability also massively improved. No idea how you go about this these days. My dad arranged my French pen friend - he worked in an international company and asked his colleagues in France. One of them had a daughter my age and wanted to
improve her English so we started writing to each other and then visited each other. I hastened to add I was 13 on the first visit and travelled on my own.

Yes I looked at the stats for both unis together but it looks as tho more interviewed candidates for Cambs will get an offer than at Oxford – so more than half for Cambs, a bit below 50% for Oxford. Typically. Apols @thefemaleJoshLyman so that may be helpful I guess? Looks as tho more YP apply to Oxford for MFL tho.

ETA yeh pretty sure Oxford made my former student a total poster girl – PP student who went to a very standard comprehensive, non native, from a disadvantaged area. A girl not a boy tho. (I am utterly sure she got her place on merit btw).

Yes, it would seem odd that a native speaker would be interested in getting a foreign language degree in their own language. I get it for GCSEs—it’s a quick win for both the student and the school, but to get an actual degree…?

@dizzydizzydizzy the problem is we have no links in France, so this is challenging. We don't know how to go about making these links.

DD is a very able linguist (only dropped 2 marks at GCSE) but doesn't always have chance to practise.

She attended a language summer school at Cambridge and we are encouraging the extra curricular that Oxbridge recommend. She visited Oxford last week and loved it there too!

I feel like I am letting her down with my lack of overseas knowledge. 😥

Aww you’re doing your best….. you wouldn’t be bothering to post on here otherwise. Hopefully someone will come
on here with a brainwave.

is your town twinned with anywhere in France? That can be a good route to develop a link.

I didn’t realise Oxford got rid of the MLAT - DD applied only 2 years ago so must have only recently changed that. The course at Oxford is as I recall VERY literature heavy - Dd much prefers doing a more varied course now and thinks she would have found the course at Oxford a bit dull, but was drawn in by the prestige. Make sure your Dd is aware of this - not sure what Cambridge’s is like as didn’t look there.
good luck to her - also consider Warwick, Durham, Sheffield - all good for languages and hopefully no closing of departments just yet

She takes a gap year and gets an au pair job in France?

My DD graduated from Oxford in French two years ago. She went to an excellent state comprehensive until 16 then an independent school for A level on a music scholarship. There is one aspect of her experience that may help your DD. Mine realised very quickly once she changed school that her grammar foundation was not secure. I had had concerns myself when she was doing GCSE and had worked with her on sequence of tenses, conjugation and the three conditionals, none of she had been taught for GCSE. So I echo the advice to do a lot of work on grammar.

My shortlist of what your DD can do to help prepare for her Oxford application

• daily listening to podcasts and radio, and watching TV and films, as many hours as possible, to sharpen up listening through exposure to different accents
• work as an au pair in the Summer if she will be 18 by then (17 if you have an EU passport) - there are lots of online agencies and by picking a family with small children, you can reduce the expectation of having to speak English (I spent two months in France as an au pair between A levels and university. When I arrived, I had to work out how to order my breakfast at the Gare du Nord. Molière and Camus were no help. By the time I left, I was not far from fluent.)
• daily reading of French news and current affairs sites
• if you live near a university that offers French, ask to attend some lectures as a guest
• record herself reading aloud so she can critique her accent

No Summer in France for my DD because of Covid, although school had insisted that's what should happen.

No MLAT, as you say, although it would be worth working through the past papers as part of her work on grammar. There are about 10 years' worth on Oxbridge Mind.

Remember that Oxford language undergraduates write their essays in English, so there is no expectation of being able to write at that level when a student arrives.

Typo

Watch French TV online - even if just the news for half an hour a day- but there are lots of really good and absorbing TV programmes.
If you can find it on catchup ‘La faute de Rousseau’ would help enormously /set in a French school, philosophy teacher /really funny but with very relevant themes.

This

I think you can find French speakers on line to practise with.

Also, someone I knew went to a play in Paris on a visit and that gave something to talk about in the interview.

People definitely do this. A lot of degrees involve literature, and all that goes with that in the form of history, philosophy and art. Someone brought up between two cultures might well want to study part of their heritage, just as we don’t think it a waste to study English literature or language.