English universities and unconditional offers

[YouBelongWithMe]

My daughter is in her final year in a Scottish secondary school but using most of her UCAS application to English universities.

If she was applying to Scottish unis, we'd be very very confident she'd be getting unconditional offers (she has six Highers, all A grade. One was self-studied as schools can only timetable students for five in a year).

But she's got her heart set on Leeds. She'll also be putting in an application to Salford and York.

She has 198 UCAS points already, and will puck up more this year.

Does anyone know how likely it is that these unis will offer unconditional places based on existing UCAS points?

It depends on the entry requirements. If what she has so far meets them, she’ll get an unconditional offer. If her already achieved grades don’t meet the entry requirements, then almost certainly a conditional offer based on whatever she stills needs to achieve.

The guy at the open day said they were looking for 136 points, which equates to AAB in A-levels. So she's hoping that because she's already way over that, with more to come, they'll offer her a place without any conditions attached.

But I never hear of English unis offering unconditional places!

Unis in England certainly do offer unconditional places to YP with grades in hand. Say they have taken a year out and then apply October after their A levels – the offer cannot be conditional bc conditional on what?

I take it that this is a similar situation. Tbf Leeds and York do not make offers based on UCAS points as such, but if DD already has the As and Bs in Highers that they specify on their websites then it‘s likely she will gain an offer.

What course? I just randomly checked history at Leeds and it asks for AABBB in highers so it sounds as tho she is there for sure

My foster son got an unconditional place for a sport degree. He is very good at sport. He got more points than was required for the course in the end but it took the pressure off him. Some students apparently stop working as hard once they get an unconditional offer which is why universities usually offer them for students who already have their results.

The course is Music and Music Technology

OK so at Leeds she needs AABBBB in highers so it sounds as tho she should be grand. Does she do another year at school now? Will she get advanced highers as well? (apols for my ignorance of secondary schooling in Scotland).

Sometimes you get a very low conditional offer, like 2Cs at advanced higher, just so they stay on at school. I think there's a pattern that people who drop out of school once they get their unconditional offer, do less well. I'm mainly in maths type subjects, where a break causes a drop in standards, I'd think Music similar. Maybe more likely to get an unconditional in something like History.

This is partly where my concern lies - she is doing S6 (last year at school) but it's not a very tidy set of qualifications she'll pick up.

She's doing Advanced Higher Music, and we think will be presented for Advanced Higher English (but is self-studying this at home) but her other qualifications are fairly unknown entities to English unis. She's doing two L6 NPAs (which, in ucas money, are the equivalent of a Higher but are internally-assessed and have no external exam): Musical Theatre and the a practical Music Technology/Production course.

I can see how an admissions team would look at it and be a bit confused.

Thanks everyone, btw!! I hope I'm worrying over nothing but I'm so nervous for her.

First off - she’s mad to forego fee-free tuition….!

I don’t think she will get unconditional offers actually - I suspect that some of the quals she has won’t be counted, even though they carry UCAS points, esp not L or Y. She should ask them (not the general admissions team, the department admissions lead) how they’d view her application given it’s a bit all over the place, and not all externally assessed. Salford maybe more flexible.

Good luck.

Do you mean some of her already-achieved Highers wouldn't count? Why might they not?

She would love to stay in Scotland but the available courses aren't great here. The offer at Leeds is miles better than any Scottish uni, whose Music Production courses are woeful. She will apply to a couple, as a back up, but to understand the difference, the required grades are BCCC. It's night and day.

Just to be clear, her 198 existing points are solely through As at Higher, not any of the NPAs.

The highers would count - what does she have. It was the internally assessed NPAs that may be difficult, though I don’t know it, would assume a Music tech tutor would be more familiar though, hence why I suggest asking.

Ah right cross posts. So she already has the grades that they ask for on their website then? AABBBB or whatever they say?

She already has AAAAAA at Higher, which exceeds what they're asking for, which is "B in Advanced Highers and AAABB in Highers, or AABBBB in Highers".

But the qualifications she's studying this year are far less tidy, although do still include two AH. Arguably, it shows dedication and commitment that, rather than do any old AHs, she's selected to do different qualifications that broaden our her musical knowledge and experience.

Hi, OP -

I think this is largely about a culture clash. If Leeds and York do not make DD Unconditional offers, it will not be a reflection of her desirability as an applicant. It will be because many English admissions tutors don’t think it is a good idea to make Unconditional offers to applicants who are still in school. Obviously I don’t say this is true of your DD, whom I don’t know, but often it encourages complacency.

The English perspective is that as the Scots do 12 years of school and four years for an undergraduate degree, whereas the split in England is 13/3, the first year of university in Scotland is more or less Y13. (I make no judgment.) This leads to different perspectives on university admissions.

Certainly Leeds, probably York and possibly Salford will have central admissions teams able to assess all kinds of qualifications. But @titchy is correct, internally assessed qualifications may not count for much (we are a highly ranked STEM programme and we would discard them formally, though we would take them under advisement in a borderline case).

Against this, the fact that DD is self studying AH English is really impressive. That will make admissions tutors sit up and blink! I hope she does enter for it, regardless of whether she needs it for an offer.

I think it’s 50-50 whether DD will get Unconditional offers from Leeds and/or York. But it is about the policies, not the person, and if the offers are Conditional I bet the conditions will be not be very challenging. Gently, and I almost did not write this for fear of sounding condescending (if you think I am, I sincerely apologise), I see nothing in the situation to be nervous about. DD is in a strong position. Best wishes to her.

(I was an admissions tutor in a strong programme for five years)

So far, she's met and exceeded the 'Highers' requirement, but not yet got the 'B in AH' bit, so the assumption would be that Leeds would make a conditional offer - their AH requirement to be met, plus (probably, since they won't be in the current cycle's results) proof of the Highers already achieved.

The 'other' qualifications being studied for are just 'noise', surely - not formally considered, but not a reason not to offer at all.

My DD applied to Durham and York with 5xA at Higher in hand from the same sitting, all in very solid academic subjects. She did 3xAdvanced Highers in S6, and both Durham and York set her conditional offers of 3xA at AH. She did get the 3 As, but declined Durham and York in favour of St Andrews, who made her an unco nditional offer.

Why Leeds? As someone from Leeds it’s not special enough to give up a free education imo.

Hi, OP -

This is truly nitpicking and it doesn’t matter, But have you reversed things in your post? If you have a B at AH you say you are required to get three As and **two Bs with it. A total of three As and three Bs, with one of the Bs (the AH) more demanding)?

If you don’t have any AH, you need only two As and four Bs?

I would have thought that roughly an A at Higher would be swapped for a B at AH? So if you have a B at AH then including it you would need

A, A, B(AH), B,B,B

and without AH you would need A,A,A,B,B,B.

Which DD exceeds, so none of our responses to you change.

I guess I have not put my days as an admissions tutor firmly enough behind me..Sorry for the pedantry.

I'm not sure - that's directly lifted from their website: https://courses.leeds.ac.uk/j543/music-and-music-technology-ba#entry

Thanks. Makes no sense to my STEM brain, but I cannot see that it matters to DD.

PS I think @SoilTiller ’s post is very interesting. It may be a good guide for what DD can expect. She has one more Higher, and Music may have different criteria to most subjects, but I do think she should be prepared for conditional offers.

However Leeds is not Durham!

Honestly, she'd be delighted if she could do the equivalent of Leeds' course in Edinburgh or Glasgow. Unfortunately, the same offering in terms of academic modules, practical experience and ability to further her musicianship literally isn't available north of the border - we've searched high and low.

She liked York's facilities better, but it's the specific offering of modules and the opportunity to do both Music and Music Technology that appeals so much to her.

I see, well that’s an excellent reason. Good luck to her. Although personally I wouldn’t want her going to either at 17. They are big cities, lots of students, lots of clubs, lots of drugs… I’d want her to be an adult first if possible.