Exeter cuts

[Itchylegs]

Anyone panicking about large cuts to Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences at Exeter. Seems like the crisis in HE is getting bigger and bigger. It feels like such a crummy time to go to university.

The issue with MFLs in school is not that they are harder per se than other subjects (they really aren't) but that they require a critical mass of learners and exposure than just isn't happening anymore. Two generations ago language learners were sent on exchanges and as PGs and au pairs - from the 1920s to the 1980s there was a big machine functioning that has been almost entirely eroded. There's a resource issue, much of which happened on the sidelines of school itself, that has disappeared. I wonder whether the invention of the National Curriculum didn't have something to do with it, as well of course as safeguarding concerns that have made stays in families so much harder to orchestrate.

For those of you with DC about to start in September (either firm or insurance), what are your thoughts? My DC has Exeter as his insurance choice and so do lots of his friends. I know this isn’t just affecting Exeter and that Leicester and Lancaster for instance are also in a similar position and Bristol had voluntary redundancies this year. When we went to the OHD at Warwick they said they are in a really good position and are even expanding their History department. If that’s accurate, it seems very unusual in current times.

@Ceramiq Some of my friends from school did MFLs in the 70 s at university and they just went straight from school. One became an Ambassador and had a distinguished career in the FO. They were just bright people who liked MFLs and engaged with them.

Warwick might be expanding but maybe Warwick hasn’t over expanded in the last 15 years? They possibly don’t discount grades like Exeter does. I don’t know but they might consolidate other courses to maintain a strong history offering?

@Fabfabfab Warwick is doing this fundraising initiative in the humanities which may be part of the story. Additionally, Warwick is highly ranked in the UK and may well be pulling in a good block of international students, research grants and paying Masters students vs Exeter etc.

www.cw-chamber.co.uk/news/university-of-warwick-090426/

I did a year abroad as part of my university degree course and worked abroad in university holidays. I hadn’t been abroad before university, just loved languages and wanted to travel and use them. My friends were the same.
I think languages were harder particularly for the generations after mine who had been taught little or no English grammar. League tables caused MFL exams to be dumbed down in a quest for better grades. Employers in the UK have never valued the ability to speak other languages so the motivation is lacking.

Also, not that there were ever loads of jobs in translation, but what jobs there were have been decimated by Google Translate etc.

Something folk don’t realise is that universities HAVE to do research which doesn’t break even and usually costs a lot of money. Fee income is supposed to fund the research.

If they don’t partake in research they can no longer claim university status.

The sooner this country breaks the perceived link between a degree - any degree, in the eyes of many - and middle class status, the better.

This obsession with A Degree as the gateway to the middle class is helping to drive the distortion around HE policy. If we could revert to the notion that HE is for a significant level of intellectual effort and other pathways to economic viability are equally worthy of respect the numbers who find it intrinsically desirable would drop, slowly and naturally. Some universities would probably go under and I feel for their staff, but I am angry at the greedy overexpansion following fee rises (remember how only a few were expected to charge the maximum?!?) that are a big part of the problem.

It is to be hoped that we would reconsider which training and study programmes should be degree programmes and which could best be delivered more efficiently in other forms.

Two of my aunts, neither of whom went to university, learned MFL to very high standards in their youth through a combination of single sex school (one a grammar, one a high school, nothing special about either of them) and parental investment in exchanges and PGing. Both of them were very fluent, one in French and Spanish, the other in French and German, as young women. Both built on that in later life when they had opportunities to learn Russian and Arabic, for one, and Greek, Italian and Spanish for the other. One a maternal aunt, one a paternal aunt so different families.

If we reduce the percentage of young people who study after A-levels, we will become less well-educated than our competitor countries.
I can see an argument for moving to different tertiary provision, but just cutting is not a good approach, it isn't 1970 any more.

Not really. If the percentage doing serious degrees was reduced, we would become less well educated.

I am a STEM academic. A number of the more practical three year STEM degrees we offer at post 1992 institutions are more similar to ss Associate Degree from a two year college in America than to a full four year university degree in much of the world.

BTW these Associate Degrees fully prepare one for many good jobs. I think they are excellent. It’s just that Americans don’t conflate them with full undergraduate degrees, and are a lot less fussed about one’s background than the British.

Comparing relative levels of education and training across countries is not as simple as a "years in education" benchmark and in any case different economies have wildly differing needs.

I think that you need to ask -has social mobility moved on a vast amount since Blair expanded the Uni population in the 2000's-really?

It just seems to have made a degree necessary in areas where it was not needed befrore, such as policing, and mid level jobs.

It has added to the burden of debt on the young in debt when they are starting out.

I work in a proffession that employs a lot of part time casual staff and most are foreign students, they work 6 days and go to college one day, they are here to work, not to study and see it as an immigration visa.

What needs to change imo is this mania for Psychology. It’s the no.1 degree and I believe no. 1 A Level. Similarly Criminology is very popular. These are “sexy”-type subjects and I’m afraid academically light. Having no brake on swathes of kids taking them up should be examined.

Even at Oxford Psychology is booming and is dominated by state-school applicants as opposed to English Literature and MFL. It is sad and unacceptable that state school pupils are only worthy of the new equivalent of “Media Studies” (fwiw my dc went to a bog-standard comp ).

Also dd’s friend did English at Exeter. She did not enjoy it. Low contact hours, little work (dd had an essay or two a week, this girl had one a term) and terms were very short (as in 10 weeks but everything packed up after a few and nothing in final terms). Too many students for the accommodation in first year even if your first choice.

I agree that Psychology is a very problematic A-level and degree. The mysteries of the human psyche are better elucidated by the Humanities and a rigorous understanding of the vicissitudes of contemporary politics and the forces that put pressure on our lives

@MaturingCheeseball Maths is the no 1 A level I think but Psychology is no 2.

Im the devil for saying there are too many students on too many courses with poor outcomes. Law is equally over provided for and a whole host of humanities and some sciences. It’s partly because all who want to go, should go, and social mobility apparently but not much evaluation about the success of such expansion. Theres certainly a lot of money spent and borrowed and very many grads have little to show for it.

MFLs and Classics tend to be dc from private schools because state schools in many areas don’t promote these subjects or bother to teach them because they are difficult.

Yep, with biology a close third:

MFLs and Classics tend to be dc from private schools because state schools in many areas don’t promote these subjects or bother to teach them because they are difficult.

Or because they would struggle to find the teaching staff.

I don’t think Classics is more difficult than Physics, say.

@SheilaFentiman It’s very different to Physics! Often the very bright can do any subject well and will move to science subjects for work related degrees. People do tend to be scientists or not! Others won’t be as good at everything but state schools, in many cases, see MFL and classic languages students as lesser beings and many won’t even let good linguists do two MFLs at GCSE. Private schools do and see this as important. State schools have killed off MFLs.

Teaching staff for physics aren’t in great supply either! So that’s no argument!

I’m no expert here but I do worry that the dialogue has become about saving the institutions rather than the benefit to the end user ie the student.

We need some serious conversations about the value of some degrees to fee paying young people who will see their debt spiral and spiral over their lifetimes. Rather than protecting academic roles at all costs we need to ask if universities have become ends in themselves and whether low contact hours and poor supervision really benefit individuals from all socio economic backgrounds, but more particularly lower demographics.

The massive expansion of the sector without restraint and without a clear understanding of the consequences was bound to lead to contraction at some point. Hopefully a more fit for purpose model will emerge that benefits providers and end users.

Could the decline of MFL also partially be due to the fact that many british students now come from multilingual families and are already fluent in 2+ languages, they then get a degree in a non-MFL topic.
Who do you think will have a better outcome when it’s time to find a job? The bilingual student who in addition has a non-MFL degree or the student with a MFL degree?

Regardless of the difficultly, physics has won the motivation battle with able students in state schools who aim to study medicine.

…not to mention economics, business, maths, other sciences and - near and dear to MeetMe’s heart - engineering.

state schools, in many cases, see MFL and classic languages students as lesser beings and many won’t even let good linguists do two MFLs at GCSE.

Do they? Interesting. I note the majority of boys at our private school only do one MFL at gcse even though there are the teachers available to do two (or possibly more!) but maths, economics, physics etc are much more popular at a level.