Do top employers now want a 1st despite saying 2:1 or above?

[Stilton678]

Interested in people's thoughts on the shifting demands of the graduate job market and what matters most in this difficult climate as I think things have changed alot over the last few years. Internships or decent work experience has obviously become much more important, especially if going after a competitive graduate scheme. What I am not clear about is whether grade inflation means that top employers are now ideally looking for 1st class degrees (or masters) even if their selection criteria says 2:1 or above? If so would it actually be better to go to a top 10-15 uni where you might have a better chance at a 1st, rather than aiming for Oxbridge (or similar) where that 1st might, arguably, be less likely? As about 80% of students now have a 2:1 or above, it seems to me unlikely that employers wouldn't distinguish?

you are massively overthinking this.

I don’t this is any way to make a calculation on where your DC study for three years of their lives.

A 1st vs a 2:1 doesn’t tell you anything about a candidate’s ability to be a good employee. It may be a clincher for a role in academia, but employers are looking for well rounded person.

there are so many variables. It’s possible that some firms/ hiring managers prefer certain universities, or prefer to see a 1st, but how can you know which specific roles a graduate will be applying for in 3 years time.

it’s also difficult to predict what policies individual businesses will implement in a few years time. Some may follow a policy of asking graduates from a wide range of universities, others might focus on 1 or 2.
Gender, social or ethnic background may hold more weight than results when employers want to build a more diverse workforce.

For what it’s worth (one of mine has been applying for pre-final year internships for this summer) a lot of the big grad hirers have tests and assessments as part of their filtering process, then the final round is usually a face to face (often online) interview or all-day assessment centre with other candidates. I suspect really acing the tests (and the interview if you get there) is more important than what your transcripts say. If you’re a maths + stats genius, say, that will show up in the tests they give you at trading/quant firms. The big hirers probably know exactly what they’re looking for and can write the tests to find those qualities.

None of the organisations my son (engineering degree) has looked at have asked for people who are nailed on for firsts. Quite a few (although a minority) of them just say 2:2 or above. The only exceptions I’ve seen are places like Jane Street, who are often looking very specifically for maths phds - but I think perhaps there’s an unusual symmetry between very good academic maths skills and quant trading.

So my sense of it, having watched DS’s experience, is that most grad hirers are really looking for how well candidates can apply their academic learning to the organisational environment, and to find that out they use their own tests. And in the interviews/assessment centres they’re finding out how candidates behave with other people, respond under pressure, talk about themselves and their experiences, etc. As pp said, being fiercely academic doesn’t always make you a brilliant potential employee!

DS started a grad scheme in industry in September with a STEM 2:1. Of 14 grads he was the only one to go in straight at 21. The majority had worked elsewhere for a year minimum. DS had worked every holiday since 16 as a sports coach, lifeguard, in a bar and in his last year in a lab. I am convinced that work experience clinched his place.

I think people are realising masters are expensive unless essential for that career path eg psychology or you want to pursue a career in academia. So I think routinely being asked for a masters for an entry level grad job is unlikely.

Let your DC chose where they think they will be most comfortable and thrive. Cambridge and Oxford might be their aspiration or might not.

Thanks all, reassuring to hear. I guess all the extensive online testing is now used to create shortlists for interviewing rather than degree class (which is more the entry criteria)?

In the firms my son was looking at (big national/international manufacturing, engineering and finance sectors), yes. I don’t know what SMEs in other sectors are doing though.

@Stilton678 What subject? I think this matters as well as where. Plus all the other attributes young people need. dH ran a civil and structural engineering consultancy. They devised tests as the degree content and classification don’t tell them what they need to know. That really boiled down to problem solving and application of learning to real life design. Universities are not always great at producing grads who think for themselves. Therefore having engineering “nous” can matter a great deal more. Half the time dc are not engineers at all and look to finance jobs but want an engineering job if they fail to get into finance. They are not that desirable as engineers.

So get varied work experience and make sure dc is well suited to the career. If engineering do MEng. If a humanities subject plan very carefully about how to access the career. Don’t just rely on the degree. Everyone has one! Work out how to stand out. A first is not the only way and dc don’t want to appear one dimensional. Oxbridge won’t get you a job on its own. Dc still need to ace tests!

@Stilton678 If you want to maximise your yp's chance of a good job, encourage them to study a degree that builds skills that are in high demand by employers, but not in a sector that is already massively over-supplied with grads. Then encourage them to build valuable (and ideally relevant) work experience that will look interesting on their CV and give them something tangible to talk about at interview. Positions of responsibility will help them stand out. They should be able to reflect thoughtfully on what they have learnt from the experiences that might be relevant to the work they are applying to.

Ideally they will have a job lined up in their final year, before they even get their final grade.

Employers will always value a grad with the right skills and a 2:1 over a grad with a 1st but no evidence of work experience. Crucially, they know as well as you do that some universities dish out many more higher grades than others, so grads from those universities may need to work harder to stand out from the crowd.

Didn't it depends on the industry? For some jobs university will still count, for others, a first will count. The caveat being work experience is now probably most important.

Also, what do you mean top 10? Most Universities in the top 10, maybe even top 20, it is challenging to get a first.

i think you are looking into this too much, someone could have gained 69% giving them a 2:1 whereas another could have got 1% more and got a first. There isn’t much in it.

My dd went to an open evening for a company she was interested in working for, where there were only 40 spaces available, she spoke to lots of different employees throughout the night and then applied for the job the next day. Within hours she had a phone call for an interview and the interviewers both said that her application was good but that a few elf their colleagues had came forward after the open night and said she would be a perfect fit for their team and to look out for her application.

i think employers are looking for a degree at 2:1 and above but they are also looking for well rounded, chatty, people wih good personalities too, a degree just shows you can do the work either individually or in a group, that you have basic knowledge etc you get the real experience on the job. A summer internship also helps as it’s shows experience of working in a team, gaining experience of working in a team , most of her friends at university who have done a summer internship have secured a job, the ones who didn’t, are struggling to secure a placement.

She was offered her job in Nov last year and doesn’t start until Sept this year.

A degree is only a part of the picture - a passport to get you through the door. A 2:1 is a good degree and I can’t imagine many places differentiating between that and a 1st.

As an employer I’d be more interested in what they did with their time at uni - did they have a job? Were they in any clubs? Did they hold any positions in those clubs? Did they do any volunteering - e.g. student mentoring, dog grooming at the local shelter - even better if it’s related to their degree or the job they’re applying for. Did they do their dissertation on a topic relevant to the role? These are all the things I’d be highlighting on a CV - even (especially) min. wage bar work, shelf stacking, care work, restaurants, etc. They demonstrate that you can work as part of a team in hard, customer facing, roles and that you have discipline and a bit of initiative. A student with work or placement experience is far more ‘work ready’ than one who hasn’t.

Can I just say it doesn’t have to be paid work. My dd volunteered for the Nstional Trust and volunteered at the CAB when doing her post grad GDL. These were just the same as a job and the cab was probably more challenging given its location in London. Then add in chairman of a ball at university and a similar position in her subject club, she was someone who did more then study and juggled a lot. She didn’t get a first but was 1 mark off. However other attributes make up for that. So
I would aim for the best university and worry less about a first and more about what other attributes dc have in order to impress employers.

Died having a first carry the same amount of prestige these days as it used to? On my degree (RG law degree) only about 5% of the year got firsts. I understand since fees came in it’s much higher now? I couldn’t blame employers for thinking the first is the new 2:1

@StrictlyCoffee They don’t all think that if they recruit from top universities they trust and are looking for academic subjects. My DH never cared about a first in his field as it didn’t prove much. Maybe someone who beavered away but wasn’t great at other things or didn’t do other things! Like work. In house tests and interviews didn’t show a first meant much at all. It’s a university grading, not a job grading. I accept some who get a first are phenomenally clever but others really are not!