Product design or engineering

[busygirl8888]

HI, DS is studying Maths, Physics and Design Technology A'levels and is interested in studying Product Design at university. DH is an engineer and says that fewer products are being designed in the UK in general so thinks that a broader engineering degree such as Mechanical Engineering would give more options and job opportunities than Product Design both in the UK and abroad. Also that if he does Engineering he might be able to go into Product Design anyway, but probably couldn't do that the other way around.

I feel that an engineering degree at a respected university could also open doors in finance and IT if DS changed his mind, but that Product Design is a bit more niche and less likely to do that. Having done a quick search of vacancies there certainly appear to be many more on the engineering side.

Are we doing the wrong thing by persuading him to consider engineering? WIth the costs involved in going to uni, we're trying to make the best decision possible. And yes, he is considering apprenticeships in product design too including the Dyson one but this appears to be ultra-competitive and not sure there are many others.

Any advice much appreciated!

I am not in any way an expert on engineering degrees but there are not that many PD engineering courses anyway (Strathclyde and Lboro might be the main ones) so he may need to have some straight engineering on there anyway.

Assuming he is in year 12 then I suggest some open days this summer and talk to lots of staff about the courses and where they can lead.

I know a YP on the Dyson apprenticeship and tbh it sounds a bit heavy going to me (not said as much to their mum tho obvs) and very distance from a university experience.

ETA: sorry I see you say PD not PD eng! ah well PD eng may be a compromise?

BTW I see he doesn't take FM – was it offered at his sixth form? If so it might be worth considering why he didn't take it (as in, to explain this on his PS) as a lot of engineering degrees will favour having it and anecdotally it is helpful to have it for the first year. Still lots of degrees open to him without it but it depends somewhat on the level of uni he is looking at.

A lot of engineering degrees do not expect FM. Some will like it a lot but plenty know they won’t get many applicants with it.

@busygirl8888 For what it’s worth, I think DH is right. Broad mechanical Engineering degrees have numerous options. Product design is a bit narrow. I would also look at engineering degrees at Sheffield - good choice of degrees. Also consider MEng - it’s a more direct route to being a chartered engineer and make sure the course is accredited.

Can't help with the original question but came to say that Imperial has a great "design engineering" degree. (Well, it looks great to me, I don't actually know anyone who is doing it, but you could ask for experiences on TSR.) I just checked and they don't require further maths for this:

To include:

• A* in Mathematics
• A, A in two further subjects

Not accepted: General Studies and Critical Thinking Science Practical Endorsement: If you are made an offer you will be required to achieve a pass in the practical endorsement in all science subjects that form part of the offer.

Think what’s more ai full proof. I assume engineering, but don’t know (no expert).

Wrt FM, very few unis will actually ask for it.

Bit it’s worth finding out (via FOI IIRC) how many students typically have it, as if that figure is say 75% and you don’t have it, you may still get a place but have a tough first year playing catch up. Otho if it’s 20% then no worries.

My DD (25) an MA in mechanical engineering at Newcastle. She walked straight into a graduate job and is thriving. She liked the designing aspect too, but personally I feel anything with 'design' labels should be considered very carefully due to AI, and I would encourage the engineering route.

@abracadabra1980 A MA? That’s unusual. MEng more normal.

Imperial might not ask for FM but most will have it. Others won’t have vast numbers with FM and their grads are still employable. When getting a job, the key is to ensure it has regulated and approved CPD for Chsrtered status. Without this you don’t progress beyond graduate engineer, which is the most basic level for degree holders. To be Chsrtered you need MEng and CPD that is from an approved employer. Any old job won’t do.

I would suggest looking at integrated engineering degrees.

How about this one, for Integrated Design Engineering at Bath? https://www.bath.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate-2027/mechanical-engineering/beng-integrated-design-engineering/

BEng can be limiting. Always go for MEng if available.

@clary You are right, of course. I seem to remember that when the course was first established they kept the entry requirements less specific on purpose (they don't even ask for Physics for this course, which Imperial normally does for Engineering). But it is always good to keep in mind the difference between required and actual qualifications. There is a website where you can look up which A-levels the people took who got on a particular course at a particular university:

https://www.theuniguide.co.uk/imperial-college-london-i50/courses/design-engineering-meng-hon-full-time-4-years-2026-6a27dff69466

In the case of "Design Engineering" at "Imperial" it shows A-level subjects of all Engineering students, not just Design Engineering (probably too few people), but one can see that Further Maths is definitely one of the most common A-levels taken for Imperial Engineering degrees. (I thought they would show the percentage of students with a particular A-level as well, but they don't here. Maybe that was another website? I can't find it now.)

Out of curiosity I checked "Product Design Engineering" at Loughborough as well because I've also read that they are very good for Design (like @clary already suggested) and the actual qualifications taken are quite different!

www.theuniguide.co.uk/loughborough-university-l79/courses/product-design-engineering-beng-hon-full-time-3-years-2026-15cb0e5e76f3

@SoftIce You are not comparing like with like. Imperial College is an integrated masters course. Loughborough is the basic 3 year degree. Imperial will always want, and get, the entrants with the highest grades. BEng courses tend to go lower because they are more bums on seats and even their info says the engineers aiming higher should do the integrated masters and that this is the route to CEng. Lots of people seem to have no idea that an integrated masters is the better (and cheaper) choice.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner Apologies - here is the MEng at Loughborough:

https://www.theuniguide.co.uk/loughborough-university-l79/courses/product-design-engineering-meng-hon-full-time-4-years-2026-bd90335c38ec

Same "Most popular A-level subjects" though as the BEng, because those are collected from students on all engineering courses at Loughborough.

To clarify: I'm talking about the statistics shown on the website. These seem to be collected by subject area, not for individual degrees, so the same stats are shown for all degrees in the subject area.

Engineering every time so long as he is looking at an A grade in maths.

As you can see, the MEng puts up the tarrif. My concern is for mechanical and product design, there are fewer jobs. Not sure they are growth areas in the uk as so much is designed and manufactured abroad.

What is behind the demand for mechanical engineering skills in the UK?

https://www.murraymcintosh.com/article/what-is-behind-the-demand-for-mechanical-engineering-skills-in-the-uk

@Elbowpatch I worded my comment badly. It’s product design where jobs are more of a challenge. The big projects for mechanical engineers are different. I’d always choose engineering over design because I think it’s more flexible.

I notice the blog is from a recruiter. They might well want engineers post graduate level. Getting the first job is not easy because firms will spend a lot of time and money training the grad and CPD is vital. CAD - boring reality. Most grads won’t be experts! That’s just sitting in an office. Not much fun.

I would agree with that.

Based on my experience, mechanical engineering graduates with an MEng don’t tend to struggle finding jobs. Although they might find themselves in finance rather than engineering.

@Elbowpatch They actively seek finance roles! As do many other engineering grads. My DD was friends with several at university and one is sort of engineering - mechanical to computer programming. I would not say it’s a huge struggle but they might not get what they want. I do think design is more difficult.

Thanks for all the replies which have been super useful and given us lots to think about.

@Softice and @dippedydoodah - thanks for the info about Imperial and Integrated design degree at Bath. Sound interesting although I'm not sure if 'design engineering' is perhaps on similar lines to product design in that might not be as flexible as a broader mechanical engineering degree. Happy to be corrected about that although not sure that DS is quite on track to achieve those A* grades anyway.

If we manage to persuade DS to look at engineering interested to hear thoughts on which type might offer most options: mechanical, electrical, civil or whatever. A couple of places like Bath and Cardiff offer joint Honours Mechanical and Electrical Engineering which could be a good option to hedge bets, although will offer less depth than a single honours degree of course.

DS2 is studying MEng at UEA. He did maths, physics and FM at A level and achieved 2 A stars and an A so exceeded expected grade expectation but needed home university (ASD and ADHD).

So many on his course without FM or high grades in maths and physics are struggling and failing modules. It’s very disheartening for them.

It might not be a good idea to persuade DS to look at engineering if his interests and strengths lie elsewhere.

If we manage to persuade DS to look at engineering interested to hear thoughts on which type might offer most options: mechanical, electrical, civil or whatever.

Bear in mind that, if you choose the right university, the first year is common across all engineering disciplines so it is possible to switch at the end of year one.

@busygirl8888 Some first years are identical, but not all.

He really needs to demonstrate an interest in engineering to be honest. DH was interested in buildings and big infrastructure projects. He actually did A level engineering back in the day and in those days there was no FM! Pure and Applied maths were two separate A levels). So maths A level was perfectly good enough - Sheffield. The Engineering A level was probably leaning towards mechanical and he was definitely a tinkerer with machines - like his dad (a toolmaker). DH also did a short architecture course at school but he did civil and structural engineering at university .

My advice is to think where DS’s interests actually lie. Does he think about how bridges are designed? What about environmental engineering which is allied to civils? Does he think about how buildings stand up and wonder about engineering projects such as HS2? If not, and he’s into machines, he’s more likely to be interested in mechanical. There will be branches of mechanical to explore on the courses.

The Engineering Institutions have web sites worth exploring for more info.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner sorry meant MEng!

I'm pretty sure A-level Further Maths has been around for a lot longer than A-level Engineering?