Dentistry - is there any point applying? Success stories welcome!

[Mafaldaweasley]

I have posted a bit on the medicine topics as my dd in year 12 was interested in medicine (not discounted this), though now seems to have moved towards dentistry. My concern, having perused various online fora, is that it seems almost impossible to get in currently (I realise medicine is by no means guaranteed but dentistry seems way more of a long shot) with people applying twice even 3 times, often with great grades and lots of work experience, and even ultimately going to Europe to study instead, which she wouldn't want to do (and doubt we could afford).

Dd has good GCSEs, not perfect, but well within criteria, she is a fairly typical bright, sociable teen, she has lots of extracurriculars including gymnastics coaching for several years, team sport, volunteering in brownies (but as far as I can see everyone else applying has similar!) She did art GCSE and has very good fine motor and practical
skills. She has done some work experience in medicine which she enjoyed, we have (hopefully!) set up a week in a local dental surgery through a contact, though I am a bit worried it might fall through as it was a nightmare trying to get anything, most dentists won't offer work experience
due to insurance issues and our local dental hospital work
experience programme is paused.

I am aware that a lot hinges on UCAT, and the need to apply strategically (but harder for dentistry than medicine as far fewer options) but just really curious to hear of any success applying as a fairly typical/ normal candidate straight from sixth form. Any experiences or inspirational
stories would be very welcome.

A friend’s Dc is doing dentistry at Liverpool. In their third or fourth year so they applied a few years ago - things may be different now?

Not sure about extra curricular (do they matter anyway? Not for most degrees) but they are quite sporty and animal loving. Certainly not any kind of super brainy student. Obvs they got good grades but I was not aware that they were an all-9 student or similar. I sound vague bc they are not the same year as any of my DC, but pretty sure we are talking great student but not gaspingly so.

Statistically someone must get in, right? Why not your dd. Look at supra curricular - research on the subject - rather than hobbies.

DH and I both did our stint with admissions, not dentistry, his was science and mine was a social science subject. Predicted grades obviously needed, D of E not bad but not quite as amazing as people may think because so many have it. DH and I really admired people that had work experience. He has recently retired he said do not touch any of that AI shit, it incensed him, I retired before it was such a thing. His was a vocational subject he liked the ones that revealed an epiphany moment when they realised that career was for them.

The student he admired the most was someone who had worked a lot of hours in a supermarket and still got sterling grades. He also interviewed for places, do they do that for dentistry? I reckon getting a years work experience is good but the job market of today means it’s very different. Our DS worked for 2 years after sixth form and then did a degree apprenticeship, does make them stand out but that was 5/6 years ago now.

Dentistry has become incredibly popular and competitive worldwide as technological improvements mean that it's an exciting field where there are both new and better ways of improving patient outcomes and the possibility to make a lot of money. Dentistry, which for ages was the poor relation of medicine, is also coming into its own with research that underscores the vital importance of good airway development for overall health, of oral cavity hygiene for disease prevention (brain and body) etc.

Thanks all - she has done bronze DofE, currently doing silver, which is as far as they go at her state sixth form; I agree though that a lot of people will have this. @ViciousCurrentBun do you mean work experience that is public facing rather than dentistry specifically? In person dentistry experience is like hen's teeth - she should have some, I am hoping that reflecting on the relevant aspects from medical work experience (therapeutic relationship/ research element) would also be valid. She does not currently have a job of the supermarket/ cafe variety though the gym coaching I mentioned is paid regular work. I wasn't keen for her to get another job as she is already busy every night of the week and has her sport at weekends, but I have suggested she try to get something over summer (but she will also have to do UCAT!)
@claryI think extracurricular more relevant for medicine/ dentistry than some degrees as they can be used to showcase key skills at interview (communication, leadership, teamworking, fine motor skills for dentistry eg). Supracurriculars is a good idea, I have suggested entering an essay competition and she says she is going to - even if she doesn't place, it will give something to talk about.
Not sure she has had an 'epiphany' moment but perhaps could work on that! She had an unusual issue with her teeth so got to go to dental hospital rather than local orthodontist, which I think inspired her.
I agree that someone must get in - just wondering who these people are! I feel she would have more chance with her original plan of medicine (she is still considering both) but I don't want to pressure her; also don't want to risk getting no offers, though I think a gap year isn't a bad thing I know it's not what she wants.

She could try getting work experience with a Speech and Language Therapist - they are very knowledgeable about mouths and there is overlap in diagnoses between dentists and SLTs.

Thanks @ceramiq that sounds like an interesting option to look into.

Aside front m the obvious work experience reading through the GDC’s Standards and Guidance is a good start for anyone considering dentistry as a career.
https://www.gdc-uk.org/standards-guidance/standards-and-guidance
It will give the applicant an advantage if they know the rules.
In addition lots of research into current trends and the future of dentistry. Understanding how the NHS contract works and how post qualification process fits into the NHS dentistry.

Look at the various specialities so she is aware of what an average dentist does during a day. We are definitely jack of all trades and master of none although to hear some young dentists talk they have a definite over inflation of their abilities.

Like most professions experience is key and what may seem overwhelming in the early days is bread and butter later in your career.

I’ll let you into a secret implants are really one of the easiest disciplines because the process is a bit like doing a jigsaw puzzle. One of the hardest is composite bonding because it’s where real artistic eye and flare is required.

Dont focus on one speciality at your interview. So many candidates seem to have decided what they want to focus on before they’ve even laid hand on patient. It’s fairly obvious which candidates are focussed on money and have no vocation. It really isn’t a job you can do well if you don’t have an underlying vocation.

I loved orthodontics as a student but after 12 months in general practice I realised that I didn’t like treating children (the children were often fine, it was the parents).

I am in my happy zone restoring a broken down tooth back to one that even the patient can’t spot as the restored tooth. My super power is extracting teeth though and I’m often called on by the younger dentists in the practice to get them out of trouble.

It is a very stressful job and another area to look into is the mental health issues in the profession. It is a perfect job for a woman because if your life plan includes marriage and children it can be fitted around life.

I’m now almost retired and work one day a week. I earn the equivalent of the average household income working 7 hrs a week. When my DS was young I worked around school hours and was able to live comfortably doing 2-3 days a week. I was never a high earner within the industry but that wasn’t really my focus. It does allow a comfortable work life balance if you are not focussed on material gain.

Google scholar has a wealth of research material. There is a whole community of dentists on TicTok and YouTube who post their work. May be worth contacting the BDA to see if they have any material useful for students wanting to apply.

Essentially make sure she knows what the profession is all about. The practical, the politics, the business side and the community as a whole. NHS dentistry is under the spotlight at the moment so a little knowledge about the history of the current contract and how it is changing. The impact of CQC on the industry and how the massive mandatory regulation impacts the costs.

A couple of years ago there was a recently qualified doctor taking X by storm. She was astonished to find out that her starting salary was not £100k+ I couldn’t believe that an intelligent young woman who had studied for 5 yrs had no idea of the salary scale she had trained to enter. Moreover that career advice wasn’t part of the course. Maybe she didn’t think that module was relevant to her.

Thanks @Crwysmam this is all really amazing advice, much appreciated.

She is interested in orthodontics (likes aesthetic aspect and idea of working with children/ young people) but you make a v good point about the parents. Not thought much beyond that in terms of specialty though - she attended an intro to medicine day at our local hospital last year in year 11, and came back quite amused at the people already set on careers in paediatric neurosurgery etc. Can relate to your advice about not going into an interview declaring your desire to enter an ultra competitive, niche subspecialty! She is definitely motivated by interest rather than money, but also I think the prospect of a stable job and good work-life balance is attractive.

Yes, does seem odd not to be aware of the payscale for resident doctors before becoming one! I don't think anyone in their right mind would go into medicine purely for the money though, there are other careers better suited to people who are mainly financially driven!

Have you asked for work experience at your local Community Dental Service? They treat anxious children and people with special needs eg learning disabilities/autism or complicated medical needs. Might make the personal statement stand out, and give her lots to talk about at interview.
They rend to be a bit hidden, but there will be one somewhere near you - google it!

Thanks @postitnot, there does seem to be an issue with dental practices and settings just not offering work experience for insurance reasons, but can look into it.

I think she needs to go round to all your local practices with her cv. I regularly take kids from our local schools for work experience.
They must be hep B vaccinated though.

could she try a dental nurse apprenticeship first maybe that will give her an advantage. I was a dental nurse in an nhs community dental clinic they don’t allow work experience unfortunately.

Thanks @ProseccoPie - she contacted lots of local places and asked in our own dentist and orthodontist too. None got back to her, orthodontist said they had stopped taking work experience students. Ours said they would get back to her and didn't. Also asked in the dental hospital and they directed her to their work experience programme, which isn't currently running. 3 or 4 friends knew dentists they could scope out, and dental nurse next door to my workplace tried quite a few contacts she had from places she had worked - bottom line, the vast majority of places won't take sixth form students for work experience. A relative knows the practice manager at a local dentist and they have said she can go there so hoping it doesn't fall through! No one has mentioned hep B though, I am assuming she will be observing not doing anything, so didn't occur to me that would be necessary.

@Catsservant thanks, I don't think she would want to do this though, she is pretty keen to get to university.

They’ve probably not mentioned hepatitis B as they have no interest in taking her!!
To be in surgery you need to be hep B vaccinated. She wouldn’t be allowed to be hands on, but could do close observation with patient consent.

I work in a community clinic and we take work experience students. I thnk it's important that 6th formers get an idea of the job, but not everywhere has the insurance. They don't need Hep b yet as they are not treating patients.

Like medical students, experience of working with a range of people - volunteering at brownies or with elderly people for example is good on a cv

I do know it seems bonkers competitive these days to get on a dental course, but if she's keen why not go for it! Is it because the doctor's strikes have put people off applying for medicine?

You could try a dental lab. They might be more open. Not direct patient facing but interesting to see the work flows

I interview for dentistry and dental therapy .
This year around 2000 people applied for 70 places in dentistry.
All will have stellar academic grades , excellent UCAT scores , many extra circular activities and charitable endeavours , all will have some dentistry work experience/observation.

The things we look for in interview are how well do they cope with stress and pressure , the dental course and dentistry is very high pressured and stressful and those who find it difficult to cope with pressure would not be well advised to apply .

The candidates who really stand out are those who have excellent communication skills , can also listen and enjoy interacting with people. Those who have worked eg pizza delivery , waitressing , fast food stand out because they have soft skills which the average 18 year old has not acquired. Overly coached candidates stand out a mile and not in a good way.

candidates are accepted from a variety of backgrounds and experience but it is very competitive and candidates have to be good self motivators , and demonstrate a good degree of resilience not only for the process but also the degree and career.

she shouldn’t be put off. Someone has to get the place. No reason it won’t be your daughter. Work experience is helpful if she can get it but just having a customer fronting job is also helpful.

Name changed for this.

My DD applied for dentistry and was rejected post interview (she got 3 interviews). She got her ranking at 2 following feedback and for Queens and Liverpool she scored very lowly, in the bottom quartile. She had 4 predicted As and had worked extremely hard for the application, so was crushed. She had a very safe offer for pharmacy but did not want to take it. I knew the odds of getting a place were low, but she wanted to take a gap year and try one more time.
She applied to do dental nursing but needed a practice. We emailed 40 practices her CV, only 3 replied and asked her to come for interview. At the 'interview' they told her they had no vacancies, but just wanted to ask her why she wanted to do dental nursing with such good GCSEs (10 9's) and predicted A level grades 🤔. One practice manager felt sorry for her and forwarded her CV to 70 of their contacts and she was given the position by a dentist (practice owner) who was supportive of her decision.
Long story short, the experience was great for her, she got 4 interviews and then got offers for all of them.

Tips:

Don't waste space talking about DoE or grade 8 trombone unless it relates back to dentistry somehow. No one in admissions is impressed by the above, all applicants will be high achievers anyway.

Talk about a hobby/extra curricular that enables manual dexterity. Crochet, playing trombone, a passion for propagating seeds etc and how this is important for a dentist

Communication is key - this came up in every interview (all 7 of them) and how you've developed your communication skills and working under pressure by working in retail, volunteering in nursing home etc etc

Stress management - how your love of swimming/horse riding/playing chess helps you to unwind after a stressful day, and recognition that dentistry is mentally stressful and physically debilitating (most dentists have back issues)

Work experience - very hard to get now, majority of dental schools acknowledge this is not possible for many students so is not a requirement.

Friend’s daughter applied two years straight and got no offers, despite getting top grades at A Level. In the end, she applied to university in Spain, Valencia I think, and studies dentistry there.

She’s not Spanish and has no EU citizenship so not sure how it works with fees, etc, but she’s very happy.

Fees for private dental school in Spain (and Portugal) are high for everyone, not just extra-EU students.

The problem with working as a dental nurse is that you have to be qualified, or on a training course. You can't just get a job there (as I did 30 years ago). Might be able to work as a receptionist- that would give plenty of experience as they take the brunt of patient frustration!

Any work experience with people will be useful. Communication skills are really important.

My daughter got a job as a trainee dental nurse. She registered for the online training academy, although had no intention of doing the qualification, but still had to pay regardless.

Thanks all, had a really busy week so not had time properly to respond!
@ProseccoPie well I very much hope they have 'no interest' in taking her, if that was the case they could just not have offered; my main worry is that they will have forgotten, as it was arranged a while ago or some unforeseen barrier will occur, probably insurance related as that seems a common factor.
@postitnot thanks, I wouldn't have thought she would need hep B as not hands on. Yes, I think the uncertainty with medical careers may be a factor increasing dental applications, not sure why else this might be. It does seem crazily competitive.
@Lollygaggle thanks for the interview tips, good to know what things they are looking for.
@Dentalmum2 really interesting to hear of your experience, well done to your daughter for persevering - it does illustrate just how competitive it is though, I agree with those saying someone has to get in but odds do seem
very long!

Good idea too re dental lab, will look into this.