Civil Engineering Degree

[MonkeyTennis34]

DS is in his 1st year at Liverpool Uni.
Socially, he’s settled in well.
He’s just told us that he’s finding the course itself “boring as hell”.
A bit of a shock.
Does the second year get more interesting?

Depends on what he expects ‘interesting’ to be!
I have a BSc (Hons) in civil engineering and an MSc in structural engineering. Personally I didn’t find it boring - I’d say maybe it’s not for him if he’s finding it boring.
I studied in Scotland so courses will be a wee bit different but 1st year was quite generic for us - simple, I’d say - then it ramps up from second year. But it doesn’t get exciting. It’s interesting, but whether he finds it interesting may be another matter given he’s bored now! I’d encourage him to consider what interests him about engineering so he can make an informed decision about whether this is the career for him. It is a flexible degree, there’s a lot of variety in civil engineering careers. He could have a career out on site dealing with evolving construction challenges or he could be in a design office crunching numbers. He could work in roads, bridges, nuclear, buildings, maritime, etc. It’s a great career and I love my job. But it maybe isn’t what he thought it’d be.

@8TinyToeBeans
Thank you for your response.
I think he finds the Maths element more interesting but not the physics (hope that makes sense).
Just chatting now, he said he’s going to “stick it out”.
Not sure if it’s too late to change courses?

Is there a work placement? Putting theory into practice usually makes a subject come alive. DD is 26 and has MEng from Bath, she loved her placements and her favourite part of the job now is being on site wearing bright orange! She's in Infrastructure (rail).

@thornbury
Yes
He has to apply for it for Year 3.

Is his first year common to other BEngs -mechanical, aeronautical etc? - so very much based on maths, mechanics, physics etc rather than subject specific content?

I think civil engineering is less mathsy than other engineering types but there are definitely avenues which are more maths forward. Sounds like he may like a consultancy type of career rather than a site engineer type of career. His placement will help give him an idea of what he likes. I did mine in the local council structures team and that told me I wanted something more technical.

One piece of important advice I’d give is that he starts looking for graduate jobs in his final year. When I graduated 10 years ago I didn’t start looking for a job until I finished and that was fine - I got a good job in the company I wanted to work for quickly enough. But now the graduate intake is very different. We know who we will have joining us when they finish uni cause they’ve interviewed for the job while in their final year. I’d also say there’s a trend in desire to reduce the number of graduates we take in, so it may become more important to be proactive.

I remember going on an offer holder visit as a prospective engineering student.

Scratched onto one of the desks was:

If it moves, it's biology
If it changes colour, it's chemistry
If it doesn't work, it's physics
If it's f***g boring, it's engineering.

I did chemical engineering, and I can't remember it being boring. First year is basic groundwork. In future years, things like industrial management, simple economics, computing, get added in.

@CraftyGin
Thanks for that.
DS1 did Chem Eng and did find it boring! He’s now in finance.
I’ve said to DS2 that having a degree, even if he doesn’t pursue that field, is always going to give him a step up.
I’m trying not to worry.

@MonkeyTennis34 mine enjoyed his first term at Southampton. It's been a good mix of maths, physics, DT, even a bit of chemistry. He's been learning how to use AutoCad, doing some Python programming, and learning practical skills like surveying. Some courses at other universities do very generic engineering theory in the first year, so maybe Liverpool is one of those and will get more practical over time.

@8TinyToeBeans I'd go further than your advice to say that final year is the very latest they should be applying for jobs - there are Civil Engineering summer internships open for applications from year 1 onwards and some companies are also providing ongoing sponsorship to students they see as promising future hires.

DD was an ICE Quest Scholar and had a job lined up from before she even started her degree, as well as paid summer placements. In her first year the engineering students worked on several projects with the architecture students and during the course they also did several field trips and site visits. It was unfortunately disrupted by covid (y2 semester 2 and all of y3 online) but they still managed to fit a lot in. She was glad to be doing the 4 year MEng so at least she had one more year on campus in some kind of normality.

Can they switch to a Civil and Structural Engineering combined course?

I did the combined course at university but got my Chartership in Civil Engineering; however, I have ended up doing more Structural Engineering in my job which I find more interesting.

How is your DS doing now @MonkeyTennis34?

@TinyMouseTheatre
Sorry for late reply!
He seems much happier now thanks.
He’s done a few more practical things on his course and has taken it upon himself to opt for the Integrated Masters.
He’s also talking about applying for a year in industry.
So, in general, he appears more motivated.
He (along with 30% of his course mates) failed one of his exams and thinks he may have to go up in August to resit it.
Socially, things are still good. He has his house-share sorted for his second year and is enjoying playing football, darts and poker!
We’re obviously relieved that things have improved!

All of that is brilliant news. I don’t know if you’ve come across Gradcracker yet but it’s good for finding internships and years in industry.

Is the integrated Masters 4 years?

@TinyMouseTheatre
Thanks for that 👍🏻
Yes, I believe it’s for 4 years but I’m not 100% sure!

I’m not an expert by any means but he might want to consider doing summer internships rather than a year in industry. From what I can gather from my DS, the only ones he knows doing a year in industry are the ones who haven’t managed to secure a place over the Summer.

Either or both options are good. My son may be doing both. His first year internship includes a bursary if he returns to the same company for a year in industry the following year. If he likes them then I expect he'll do that, or else he might look at applying for another summer internship instead.

@MonkeyTennis34 Yes the masters is 4 years and is the better course. A year out might be difficult to secure and he will need to know that a year in industry pushes it up to 5 years. In many ways it’s not necessary and it often takes a lot of applications to get anything. It’s like applying for numerous jobs and time consuming. The university won’t have placements lined up.

When he gets a job he should ensure he’s on a training pathway to become a chartered engineer. The year in industry probably won’t count towards that so he’s then a year behind everyone else. Students should weigh up the pros and cons of time and job prospects without doing a year out. He could be better off working or doing a short placement in the summer and not the whole year.

A year in industry won't make him a year "behind everyone else", it'll give him a year's more experience than his peers who don't take a year out and potentially make him more employable. If that's what he wants to do then nobody should be talking him out of it any more than you should talk an A level student out of taking a productive gap year.

Some students do find it hard to get good year in industry jobs, but in civil engineering they're plentiful. Applying for them is good experience in itself, and lower stakes than applying for graduate jobs. If he doesn't get one, then he can simply stay at uni instead.

@inchingthru You don’t understand how civil engineers become Chartered Engineers do you ?

Chartered (fully qualified) engineers must follow a post graduation CPD programme laid out by the ICE. If they don’t, they don’t become fully qualified engineers. It’s like becoming a solicitor, a law degree qualified you for further training but you need the further qualifications! Or you are just a law grad. An Engineering degree is identical.

Generality an engineer cannot commence their professional training until they have completed their degree. Before that they are student engineers. A year out working (and it might be somewhere offering no registered professional training at all!) usually will not count toward the professional post grad training requirements which are closely monitored and must be of a high quality. If others start the professional training at 22, (after standard MEng) but dc is 23, he is a year behind the others in his original cohort. So students should weigh this up.

Plus if work is easy to get, why does he need a year out? Summer work is also excellent!

Yes, I do understand how they become chartered engineers. My own son is on that journey. I realise your husband owned his own CE company, and you know the process well, but that doesn't mean you understand the personality and circumstances of the op's son. If he wants to do an industrial year, then its important to understand his reasons before doling out generic advice. It might be pivotal in helping him decide whether CE is for him or not. It might help him to decide which of the several types of Civil Engineering is (or isn't) of interest to him. It might help to bolster his finances. It might give him generic workplace skills that will help him to hit the ground running when he gets a graduate job. He could get all these things from summer internships. But an industrial year is also a great option. Some employers will favour them in recruitment processes, others may not care.

My DS's summer internship is linked to future opportunities for an industrial year via a retainer bursary. After doing the internship, he will decide whether he wants to do that or not. Speed of future chartership qualification will be one of the decision criteria, but certainly not the only one. In any case, the company has told him they give its student engineers professional development that counts towards future chartership. Whether that is true or not, he will find out more when he does the internship.

Adding ..student placements may not count as full post-graduate professional experience in the same way as post-grad employment, but they can help satisfy parts of the competence framework. Some employers will allow placement-year objectives to feed directly into graduate development schemes for returnees.

@inchingthru I didn’t say I did know him! I have clearly said it needs weighing up and it’s not 100% placement good - no placement - a failure.

ICE clearly states that evidence being used for gaining Chsrtered status must be current. Therefore not gained on a placement as a student.

My DS is also on a Civil Engineering degree and will be doing his first summer internship starting in June, which should also become his year in industry placement. He’s keen to have some experience with real life projects, so he can understand better how the theory, maths and structural design is applied in the workplace. He will be on a journey to gain Chartered status after graduation … but it’s not a race. None of it is ‘wasted’ years, putting him behind. I find that quite an odd attitude.
I would encourage OPs son to find a placement so he can put his learning into practice and see some exciting projects in construction. It should also hopefully fire his enthusiasm for what can be a very rewarding career.