TMUA & STEP for MATHS? Is it possible to achieve a good Step score after an average TMUA?

[Cratos]

Hi Everybody,
My DS received an average score of 4.3 for TMUA today. He wants to study Maths and he applied to Cambridge, Warwick, Bristol and Bath. (He has 2 offers, one of them for Maths&Stats)
He is doing really well at College and all his GCSE s were 9. He is currently studying Maths, FM, Physics and Econ A levels with AStar predictions. He is a very organised and hard working pupil.

Is it possible to achieve a good Step score after an average TMUA like this ?
Or is this score an indicator of his future potential now? Should he still pursue Maths ?
We are all a bit confused since he has been doing so well etc. I guess ultimately it is his decision but I wondered if anybody has gone through a similar experience or if any experts out there can provide some advice.

Thank you very much.

Is it possible - of course. Especially if something went wring on TMUA. And there
is still time to study for it.
However - STEP is notoriously difficult. It is set for 50% of people to fail.

My daughter is also trying to get into Cambridge and she says that they don’t get a copy of the TMUA score, so they will probably offer him an interview with such good GCSE grades and predicted grades. It wont impact this process at all.

He probably had a bad exam (my daughter also is disappointed with her score), but the good news is that has all year to study hard and get a good Step exam in June.

Good luck.

Apparently that TMUA in the context of this year is pretty good.

It is lower than average unfortunately

I think you're right to be realistic. Whereas there are exceptions in every case, TMUA and MAT are good indicators of the way of thinking and working needed for STEP and maths at the very top universities. My DS got 5.7 last year, which was the first year of the lower scores - well above average but well below his friend who got 7.something with no more prep. They'd been neck and neck all through school, but this was the point where my DS was "very good" whereas the friend was "exceptional"
The friend is now at Oxbridge, and DS very happy at a university which is just below COWI. He's loving life overall, whereas I think if he had scraped into Oxbridge he'd have had to work extremely hard to keep up with the naturals at that level - by all accounts even they have to work very hard.

This is very good advice, thoughtfully expressed.

I’d also add some thoughts to being realistic.
If your son wants to study Maths - he really needs to make sure he gets his offer grades at Alevel. And generally - every year a large percentage of kids don’t make their grades.
And add to it prepping for STEP.

He’d have a better chance if he drops Econ,
or physics - if his offers are OK with Econ.
It’s time to be strategic and practical.

They do get a copy of the score, surely? It's their admission test so they must do. Sorry if I've not understood you correctly but I'm pretty sure the result is the deciding factor in interview invites at this point. But as to OP, it was a tough test this year and he did his best. Time will tell if he gets an interview or not, it's not beyond the realms, but Bath and Bristol are both great options so he's sorted and will do well one way or another.

@pinkdelight, Cambridge use Step not TMUA.

Ah course, thanks. My DS is compsci so forget that it's different for maths.

Hi, OP -

I am a former STEM admissions tutor in a School just below the COWI tier and I agree with @PerpetualOptimist that @NeedingCoffee has given excellent advice.

STEP is by far the most difficult of the Maths entrance exams. We can’t know why your DS got his TMUA mark and we can’t really know what this means for his individual ability to do university maths. The universities that use these tests do think they mean something and in the aggregate I agree. I doubt any admissions tutor anywhere would claim they always get it right. Some candidates need more practice than others; some just don’t test well as soon as they are feeling challenged or stressed.

Nevertheless this is the system DS is stuck with. Like everyone he needs a solid Insurance choice and it sounds like he should have one that does not require an entrance exam.

Even if DS is not a potential COWI student, it is a huge and fallacious - ridiculous, actually -
leap to say that he cannot make a fine mathematician. DH is a Russell Group maths professor (just gone emeritus). He did actually go to Cambridge, but I am running my mind through what I know about the backgrounds of his colleagues and co-authors. The British ones are mostly RG but among the most successful COWI is not nearly as over-represented as you might expect.

BTW, it isn’t quite accurate to say that 50% of candidates ‘fail STEP’. Cambridge set the national STEP grade boundaries in such a way that only about 50% of Cambridge Maths offer holders make their offer, almost all because of STEP.

I hope DS is not too discouraged, because a prediction of 4 A stars is notable, even in these times when predictions are on the generous side. Doing his best now will pay off later. The programmes you have mentioned are excellent, but many others are, also, and can take him wherever he wants to go. Best wishes to him

Hi, yes she confirmed if they are studying maths at Cambridge then the TMUA results are not needed, only STEP. It also says in the TMUA page that the results are used for only certain courses such as computer science in Cambridge.

Thank you very much to all of you for your feedback and advice. DS is very disappointed but hopefully he will keep going eventually and we will do our best to support him. Have a great week !

I think personally that UK university entrance for the most competitive courses is highly functional: universities do actually care about recruiting the students who will flourish on their chosen course and are able to be very selective because there are plenty of applicants. If you play the UCAS game according to the rules, you end up at the right university for you.

Hi again, just wanted to give an update. DS received an interview invitation for Maths at Cambridge. We know that they interview 70% so he doesn't have high hopes but he will prepare as much as he can. @MMmomDDyou are right he may have to consider dropping an A level. We would probably contact the unis he applied and ask their opinions before doing this. We will leave this decision to him. If he decides to do Step (since Warwick also may offer this option as an alternative) then 4 A Levels may be too much. It is not possible to predict the future but we are doing our best to minimise the risks I guess. Thanks again for your feedback.

Congratulations to DS, OP!

If he gets an offer, STEP will be a new element in the mix.

I am a proponent of three A levels (and a former STEM admissions tutor in a high tariff school). However DS should be aware that a very few degree programmes, specifically including a few at C, want a ‘suitable workload’ relative to other pupils. I think 3 subjects plus STEP should fulfil this but he would need to be certain.

Also he would need to inform UCAS if he drops an A level as otherwise his offers may be technically voidable. That was true during my admissions stint

My DS Cambridge offer was Astar, Astar (Maths, Further Maths), A (Physics), 1,1 in STEP and they also asked for a pass grade in his 4th A level (Chemistry) so he couldn't drop it. He then focused on STEP preparation and didn't do much work for Chemistry! He basically treated STEP as his 4th A level and did loads of past papers. It paid off though as he achieved S, 1 in STEP (and a B in Chemistry) and is now in his 2nd year. Even with these stellar 6th form achievements he is finding the course at Cambridge is really tough and very intense. Hope your DS enjoys his interview.

(edited to remove * bold issue)

@Cratos
Good luck to your son!
As to the 4th A-level - Cambridge sends out offers in Jan - so if your son gets it and they do make an offer, mentioning the 4th A-level,
you’ll know then.
All the other Unis - make offers based on 3.
You can, of course, call them to confirm.
At DD’s school - kids are ‘encouraged’ - basically told to drop their 4th A-level after the first year of 6th form. Some do it in the second year after applications. Unless they do Maths/FM, that is.
DD’s Oxbridge offer last year was AStar AA - with A star in Maths/FM and other As in sciences. She could have dropped one of her sciences after getting her offers, but said she feels confident in getting the grades anyway. Her additional tests and interviews were already done before the offers.

IF she had STEP to prepare - it could have been a different story though. And if she were in your son’s place - certainly so.

Even if an offer is on three A levels, formally it can be voided if the admissions tutors have not been notified (through UCAS, during my time doing Admissions) of and approved the change of plan.

Better safe than sorry

@poetryandwine

Of course you need to notify UCAS - and the kids that dropped their 4th A-level after submitting applications/getting offers did everything oficially - there were a few in DD school, as well at the top London boys schools.
No offers from RG unis were withdrawn as a result, just fyi

I wish the top independent schools were not so keen on starting pupils on four subjects! But I am glad it worked out for everyone.

@poetryandwine

TBH - I don’t think it’s a bad thing. And most take the decision to drop 4th at the end of first year of A-levels - when they are more clear what they’ll be applying for + can see which subjects they are likely to do best.

And, maybe kids at independents should have offers based on 4 A-levels - as most are privileged on a number of levels. Could be one way to make the process fairer.

If differential offers were still thought acceptable I wouldn’t necessarily mind but I daresay that most parents and teachers at independent schools might feel otherwise.

DH was a scholarship boy at a public school with an excellent Oxbridge record, long ago now. Their Cambridge offers were very high indeed, compared to now.

He thought that with all the advantages the school had the system was reasonable, but it was a different era

@poetryandwine

Agreed. And of course parents at independent schools wouldn’t like to see
it. Part of what we pay for is supposedly better chances for our kids.

And not all independents schools are the same anyway.

It was just a general musing on my end. I know my kids are privileged at a private sector - and in general in life. They know it too, and they do work hard.

No system is ever fair.

@poetryandwine thank you very much for your advice about contacting UCAS as well as the unis. We will contact UCAS and all admissions teams if DS decides to do that.
Actually DS s state school advised against the 4th subject but at the time he was indecisive between studying Maths or Economics at Uni and therefore he kept the 4th. We knew that for Cambridge, Physics was important too so DS ended up with 4.

@IThinkImAMathmoMum thanks for sharing your experience. This is very interesting to know. It is nice to be able to keep the 4th subject going with less pressure.

@MMmomDD thank you very much for your advice. My DS considered dropping Econ at the end of last year but he was doing well and he didn't. However, Economics is a difficult subject to get an A or A Star I think.
It is good to know that students dropping the 4th didn't lose their offers.

One of DS s offers provided 3 versions of their offer. One of their alternative offers includes the 4th A level as well. Unfortunately, they want an A in the 4th subject.

Do you think STEP preparations and Maths/FM/Physics A levels support each other or is STEP very different ? Would preparing for STEP risk A level grades in other subjects?

DS is also is trying to decide if he doesn't get an offer from Cambridge (which is the most likely outcome) should he still do STEP ? One of his other offers mentions STEP as an alternative if TMUA score is low but wants grade 2 in STEP.

Thank you all for your contributions. It is pretty challenging to navigate all this without getting this feedback. Every day is a school day for me at the moment. We have gone through this process for medical school applications for DS1 and that was a roller coaster as well.
DS1 started with 5 A levels. He completed one A level in year 12 and then he dropped FM before Ucas applications. It did work out for him in the end. But there is certainly a lot to understand.

As @Ceramiq says it is all about playing the UCAS game according to the rules but it's hard to predict everything.