Russell Group Universities percentage of state, private, foreign students

[Witwatersrand1970]

DS is applying for universities and I was looking for some stats on Russell Group - I managed to compile these 3 graphs:

@OnlyOnAFriday It’s been a group for decades now. It’s shorthand for aspirational (Bar a few that didn’t join) and research led. Several are not top 20 but it’s a useful to know which one are in it.

Yes I know that. But 30 years ago I don’t think I cared when looking at universities for my first degree. Even six years later when I was looking again for my second degree. And to be honest for most undergrads it’s irrelevant.

I’ve studied at 7 different universities now including two RG universities (one for an UG degree and one for a PG). The best teaching I’ve had has not been at an RG university.

I like the graphs, but I am not sure they are very helpful as opposed have said.

What is independent school based on? Sixth Form only or ever been to a private school? For example, I went to a private school for 1 year when I was 4. I very much doubt that helped me at all with my A Levels. My son was at private for secondary school but state for 6th form.

Secondly, not all state schools are equal. A comprehensive with uninterested parents, poor teaching and bad results isnt compatible to a comprehensive that is rated outstanding, with an intake from invested parents. Or a state school that has special places for those with musical ability. Or a state school that has boarding places and takes mostly only children of British Army officers. Or a state school that is selective (ie Grammar).

Thirdly, 6th forms ARE selective. You have to achieved certain results to take A Levels. And in some subjects, for example maths, you have to have achieved 8 in GCSE maths to be able to study it. Some state sixth forms are very selective - interviews, needing good grades across the board... Not to mention catchments and feeder schools...

It isn't a simple comparison to say state school Vs private school.

International students are classified as those paying international fees, which is usually defined as them being non-UK resident. You can be a British passport holder living overseas and be an international student, and you can be a foreign national living in the UK and be classed as a domestic student.

Universities prefer international students as they pay far higher fees, so arguably, yes, if we still lived overseas and my (British) DC were applying to UK universities and paying international fees they'd stand a better chance of admission than when applying as a domestic student from an independent school paying local fees because (i) fees and (ii) don't come into the social mobility metrics. Downside is it would bankrupt me 😂

However, another factor is that UK educated international students (e.g. you're a Chinese national, your parents live in Shanghai, you boarded at Eton) go to non-UK universities in higher numbers than their Eton compatriots who are UK resident because the finances are less prohibitive. The difference in fees between local UK and international US fees are eye watering, whereas the difference between UK and US international, not so much. Going to a UK boarding school doesn't usually count as UK residency for local fees, although some universities do allow it.

It is a complicate picture. If your teenager is going to do a 3 year first degree there may be fewer international students on that than coming here at 21 to do a masters for example. Also some RG universities are particularly good for employment and others not quite so much so RG is not really the threshold (it did not even exist when I went to university).

3 of my 4 lawyer children went to Bristol.
I would recommend parents and their teenager have a look at what jobs the student might ultimately want and then do a google search for the name of the employer, linkedin and then some term like (for my profession) "trainee solicitor" and that will show you from which universities people are being recruited for a particularly career and employer.

About 18% of pupiils in the sixth form in England are in fee paying schools because a lot of chidlren drop out of state schools without doing A levels so the statistics of lower down in schools eg primary level in fee paying schools is different.

My general advice is that the higher the grade requirements but more importantly the grades people get who go there to get to a university the more useful it will be to your career.

@OnlyOnAFriday I don’t agree it’s irrelevant. It’s very relevant now there are fewer and fewer grad jobs.

A while ago the IFS still found RG grads had better earnings than the post 92 or the new universities of the 60s, eg Essex. At the elite end of RG, it very much matters for some careers. I agree with @Xenia on that. The ifs found large salary differences between economics grads from LSE when compared to those for economics grads from post 92 universities. For some jobs it makes no difference but it can. RG has been around since 1994 but I do agree that students were less bothered in the 80s for humanities but many did care for stem. DH did engineering in the 70s and didn’t consider non red brick. So there’s always been a pecking order for some subjects and track record was important plus employment prospects. It matters a lot more now.

It’s irrelevant to the quality of teaching was more my point.

I do take on board your comment about would it increase the chances of getting a graduate job. I think that would depend on the specific course. Subject league tables may be more important. Locally for quite a specific course local organisations will prefer the post 92 students over the RG university as the post 92 is higher up league tables and more importantly the organisations say they find the post 92 students better prepared.

Will be the same for other universities/courses ie Loughborough and Sports Science.

@OnlyOnAFriday My DD1 was at RG and the whole point is the requirement for students to research for themselves. Teaching is not so much of an issue because it’s not school. Seminars and presentations based on student research were important and produce excellent transferable skills. Teaching is just one part of the jigsaw puzzle.

But that’s irrelevant to their RG status. How does the university having RG status affect the teaching methods used in a UG course? Individual universities and indeed programmes set their own teaching styles. Neither of the RG universities I attended required me to do any research. All teaching was very much didactic.

I’m now a senior lecturer at a post 92 and my UG students have to do “research”for sessions and present back to the cohort. Not being an RG doesn’t prevent that happening.

You say teaching isn’t important because it’s not school. Who do you think has made the decision to run the sessions in the way you spoke about? The lecturer/module lead does. Of course “teaching” is important. Or are you suggesting your Dd is teaching herself a degree? My students would complain no end if they thought that. 😁

But let’s not fool ourselves into thinking that such student “research” is postgraduate level research. It’s literature searching and presenting back. I have yet to come across any UG students setting up RCTs and running them themselves. 🤷‍♀️. Of course that’s still teaching them valuable skills and is a more meaningful teaching strategy than didactic methods.

But it’s still teaching. I decide the topic areas, I decide the methods of presenting back, I support the students through the process, listen to the feedback sessions and correct any errors/fill in the gaps.

The one possible benefit of an RG university apart from it potentially helping them when job hunting is if there is some excellent professors there who are involved in UG teaching. But ime they don’t get involved in UG teaching as they’re too busy doing research or supervising PG students. They might get to teach the UG students once a year.

strength in a subject area is more important than RG status.

@OnlyOnAFriday It’s not a school! Depth of research by lecturers matters because it broadens the education of students. I’ve no idea what course you did without you doing any research of your own! Surely it wasn’t just talk and chalk? Even if it was, the talk should be well informed!

My DD did MFLs. So self guided MFL learning. Of course she mostly taught herself! 100% of language learning on the year abroad. There was language assistant availability at university but the hard yards were down her. Then had to read books and research module topics and write essays. You cannot write a decent essay without research around the topic. It is not all taught. How can it be? The guidance given by lecturers who have conducted their research is valuable and RG recognises this.

Most people think post 92 unis have more dc needing to be taught. It’s a different product and the students are often wanting the teaching because they do see the courses as continuation of school. This suits some disciplines well, but it’s not great prep for some areas of work. If it was, non RG students would be in all the highest paying jobs, but they aren’t.

My DD did a module in medieval French too - how do you read the poems of the Crusades without doing your own self learning, reading and research? What universities have experts in this area of learning? Could your students do this? It cannot be all chalk snd talk. Far too narrow. The idea that high quality research by lecturers doesn’t inform teaching is simply wrong.

What I think is useful in other universities, is that lecturers have come in from industry with great experience snd intellect and use this in their teaching. It’s often a different teaching style which brings in experience but it’s not much use for MFLs! That’s the point really. Different courses need different expertise and RG recognises the academic research route. Obviously there’s RG plus - add in St Andrews, Bath, Lancaster and Loughborough and increasingly Surrey into this group.

Like your daughter, I studied MFL at a RG university, including a final year module in medieval literature (taught by a professor who specialised in that area). It was very much a taught course! Obviously we did our own wider reading to write essays, but in no way was it 'self-taught' or a research degree.

@OhDear111 I think when I’m talking about research I’m meaning something different to what you’re meaning. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. When I talk about research I’m not talking about going away and reading journals and text books or poems to deepen understanding, that’s reading/literature searching not research.

As someone who’s been an academic for nearly a decade I’m very aware it’s not school thanks. 🤔

OK ...here is the most recent update with comments from you lovely lot - thanks all for your input (apart from the baity 'divisive' comment). The OP was confirming my bias which was skewing the results.
The important point was to distinguish between international UNDERGRADUATE numbers and to understand that percentages of State/Independent were reported as percentage of UK students and not overall percentage. The best data I could find was from 2022. In terms of equity it becomes complex very quickly when you look at the makeup of the State school (i.e. grammar, leafy comps, super selectives etc) and also that a high number of International students are products of the UK independent sector. Maybe what would be more telling is the percentage makeup of the postgraduate sector as I get the impression this is more affordability/results driven - this is a hunch more than anything else - i.e. is it heavily weighted towards independent and international students?

There were a few comments about LSE and State school numbers and you can see a more accurate picture emerges - i.e. it goes from a 'snowballs chance in hell' to a more realistic 43%!

Unfortunately I can't edit my original post so I do hope everyone can scroll down to my latest attempt.

I've probably still got the picture wrong but it feels righter ...

I think you misunderstand reading and research. Research goes much further and allows a student to make judgements about what they are reading. It enhances critical thinking and a higher level of education.