University of Nottingham to suspend MFL and Music for new students.

[HPFA]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly9zwqvn53o

Also some undefined changes to nursing courses.

That's not the terminology people use though when they talk about ' mickey mouse courses'. Its normally whatever they think is less valuable or something they dont understand because they went to University 50 years ago. There are many courses that accept low grades because they need bums on seats, like, as we can see, mfl and music. I don't have DC who are intending to do either so have no skin in the game but I wouldn't consider either of those useless. Many people would consider courses like management or leisure management ( again, no skin in the game) as ' mickey mouse but they are highly in demand. What about accountancy and Law? You don't need to do a degree to be an accountant. Its it a useless degree or not? Again with law. Highly in demand but at the end of it only 1/3 at most will be able to go into further training in Law. You dont even need to do a Law degree to be a lawyer. Its never on the list of useless degrees though. Its just far too subjective. Should we only have STEM? We would have to pay enormous tuition fees if they weren't subsidised by humanities/social sciences.

I think ‘Mickey Mouse’ is VERY hard to define.

Some of the lowest A level grade requirements are for ‘traditional academic subjects’ but at lower ranked universities. However, these may be critically accessible stepping stones for local students, those who cannot leave the area for personal reasons or due to cost, or those who are first generation university attendees who think more established universities are ‘not for them’. Courses may well be available in formats that allow study alongside employment.

Some of the subjects that sound ‘Mickey Mouse’ are actually very high quality, niche courses with high employment rates in the local area.

Some ‘low-ranking’ institutions have world class elements, where selection may be fierce but not measured through A-level grades.

As an example, consider Birmingham City. Its Economics course, for example, is not up there with the highly selective universities, despite being a course name not usually described as ‘Mickey Mouse’. Ditto Architecture - but for someone currently working in an architect’s office, it provides a route through which someone can pass the Part 1 exams, which us not available elsewhere.

Its Horology and Jewellery courses sound ‘Mickey Mouse’, but are tailored to key local industries.

Royal Birmingham Conservatoire, part of BCU, is highly selective by audition, not A levels, and is much more highly regarded nationally and internationally than BCU as a whole, with a particularly high reputation in some genres.

So do we want to axe traditional academic courses from lower ranking universities, niche courses that meet local business needs, or whole institutions even if they harbour some extremely high quality parts? And if we do wield the axe, who and what are we harming, in terms of local people and disadvantaged groups (often already affected by the almost total disappearance of meaningful adult education courses).

@HPFA We do have around 37% of young people going to university at 18 and the vast majority of degree apprenticeships have been going to younger employees and not 18 year olds. We do have 50% in the workforce with degrees so I’m not seeing many parents not valuing degrees.

However the reason for getting the degree has changed because of money. Parents (in many cases) want dc to get a good job as a result of the degree and this just isn’t happening.When 10% went every grad had much higher earnings potential and would find grad work. With 37%, this is clearly a challenge.

In most businesses, lack of success in terms of product (grads) in the market place, would mean altering your product so you could “sell” it. HE is very slow to do that. I know some people aren’t ambitious for dc, but most are which is why dc need the best advice and also appropriate HE courses. These are denied them at the moment with the poly sector no longer offering 2 year diplomas. FE is largely poor in scope and quality. We need a non degree middle way and then we don’t have degrees with low status.

On another thread a parent is telling dc not to take an offer from LSE if he gets one. It’s London and too many international students. I think there is lack of ambition in some people and it’s driven by somewhat unpleasant thoughts. Too often we are a nation that likes what we like and we don’t like anyone else much. When I read about dc not being able to mix with privately educated dc, I’m aghast. We have such a narrow view of the world. Does any of us really care where our gp went to school? At times we need to grow up as a nation!

Please send me a link to the thread about someone being encouraged to turn down LSE?!

That's surprising, turning it down for Oxford, Cambridge I understand.

But it's a university its absolutely outstanding for social sciences. My eldest desperately wanted to do their masters at LSE, but alas the grades weren't good enough.

My youngest is hoping to go their for UG.

I think people will be surprised which universities are in the most financial trouble. A lot of the post 92s have run a tighter ship with regards to course efficiency (staff hours/ resource costs etc) because they’ve often been second place to the RGs and needed to operate in a way that expects lower recruitment. RGs are now realising they need to restructure and can’t have as many unique smaller programs.

Brilliant post.

Yes agree, great post from @cantkeepawayforever

@BiglyCheese this is the LSE thread, apols I thought you were on it https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/5440417-russell-group-universities-percentage-of-state-private-foreign-students

👏👏

I think that the cost - not quality - of London-based universities means that some families will encourage student offspring to apply elsewhere. For others, the highly dispersed nature of the student body, where they live and where they socialise, may also be a factor to weigh against the ‘raw quality’ of the courses available.

DS applied to London institutions offering his chosen course; DD did not. In both cases, that was in line with all the factors they balanced in their preferences. In the end, both ended up elsewhere.

My DD surprised me by saying she "would never have fitted in at private school". She was a normal middle class kid with an RP accent so I can't imagine what dhe thinks private schools are like. Im sure she would have fitted in just fine.

I think apprenticeships could be great but I hate seeing them framed as "the alternative for kids who shouldn't be at uni" .

If a kid wants to go to uni and is given clear info that it might not lead to a high paying job then I think they have a right to that opportunity.
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The issue with apprenticeships is that there are very few of them and they are very time intensive. Employers need to commit another member of staff to mentor the apprentice as well as give them a day off work for study. I used to work with NHS apprentices in non clinical roles. It was extremely difficult to get them to even get an hour off to meet me, let alone ensure they were getting their study time. God knows what is like trying to get time as a clinical apprentice. Also 38% of yp go to University. They're are plenty of YP who need alternatives- apprenticeships, diplomas etc without bothering about yp who have A Levels/ equivalent and get onto a University course which for most will lead at least in the medium to long term to a better paid job. FE is chronically underfunded and desperate for staff- yet people don't want to leave their accountancy/ construction careers to teach in FE. Without supportive employers and without teachers there are no apprenticeships. Yet YP are berated for going to University when often its the only option.

@HPFAThe degree apprenticeships are very hard to get and certainly many take dc who could get to the best universities. Some apprenticeships are narrow with not great degrees attached. The lower grade ones are suitable for DDD type dc and they can work up to a degree. Why not? No one thought this wax wrong 40 years ago. It is recognising these dc are better served by working and studying at diploma or 2 year HE level. It’s still HE. Then it’s a top up for the degree - usually 2 years. We need to move away from degree fits all and prepares all for work when they clearly don’t. Parents look at the costs with angst.

@OhDear111 I agree with you but I think thats a different argument, and related to, I think, funding. HE courses still exist, as do HE institutions. Im assuming the reason these courses aren't run anymore at the Levels they were is because of lack of funding. Its not really to do with the University system as most were run by FE/HE colleges and I agree enabled yp to study locally and did diplomas etc. YP who go to University will end up paying back much more than they borrowed due to the interest payments. We need to provide for the majority of YP who dont go to Uni and need a middle way instead of constantly concentrating on the minority of YP who go to University.

@RainbowBagels Yes. I agree but we have virtually NO HE provision that’s not university. My local HE college became a university. That’s the issue. The local FE colleges have a narrow and rather low level focus. I’d like to see these former HE colleges offering 2 year courses and students get loans for those. Just 2 years is cheaper to provide after all. I think we have short changed some graduates (and grad jobs are 1/3 down) as well as not having suitable courses for those just below degree level who need a different route. I fail to understand why we lack imagination!

A bit off topic regarding Nottingham MFL and music but there are other areas of learning that are questionable and employers do not trust the degrees either.

Nottingham Music students could try a big protest at a prestige university music event. Last year's UniBrass was hosted by Cardiff - who had announced they were closing down music . Cue student protests and banners at this event. Music was restored by a very embarrassed management team. (also MFL).

Too many universities after the same students though. It’s very difficult to see how some humanities courses can survive. Just not enough academic students taking these subjects because they are hard and need specific skills dc won’t bother with. As universities don’t care much about A levels taken, the difficult ones are dropped because no one cares.

Terrible suggestion! Telling them to stamp their little feet.
The management were clearly weak and not fit for purpose if they reverse strategy out of ‘embarrassment’.

They were not stamping their tiny feet. We all have a right to protest and for voices to be heard. What would you have people do? Roll over and give in?

If they don't have the money what do you expect them to do?

This is a absolutely horrendous. By getting rid of modern languages it's culturally isolate so many. And we need musicians because we need entertainment. The government really need to do something to protect the arts because right now they’re so focussed on STEM and, whilst obviously really important, is not everything.

It’s not a Nottingham issue in the bigger scheme of things. It’s pupils not taking A levels in MFLs or music. The numbers drop so courses aren’t needed. There is bound to be fall out. The conservatoires are still there for performers. It’s not a complete desert for musicians. The jobs for music grads aren’t there either. We have many unemployed people with arts degrees. Unfortunately. It’s dog eat dog and many get no work at all in performing arts.

Such a good post!
Not everyone can travel.

Nottingham aren't just suspending MFL and Music, it's loads of courses some very highly regarded Inc sciences.

This letter caught my eye regarding HE:

www.theguardian.com/education/2025/oct/29/university-finances-and-the-elephant-in-the-senior-common-room

@cantkeepawayforever I’m not sure we can afford to keep courses running that don’t provide a good platform for work though. The courses linked to local industry are likely to provide some jobs but some low tariff courses are should not be costing the nation loads of money for dubious student outcomes. I would suggest if people cannot travel for a course, they won’t travel for work either so not quite sure if local universities are over supplying grads where they aren’t needed. Lincolnshire has low employment of grads but I’m sure local people go to the university so maybe places should meet employment need a bit more closely? After all, a university education is not a social service paid for by the state. Both grad and the state should get a return on the investment and effort.

The University of Lincoln specifically partnered with the Co-op to train pharmacists as recruitment was so difficult. That sort of thing?