Anyone have experience of studying medicine in English in Europe?

[rickyrickygrimes]

I work in an international school in France. All the students are English / French bilingual, and I specifically advise students looking to study at university in English. I'm getting requests quite often from students who want to study medicine / vet, but they don't want to stay in France (where the system is brutal with competitive exams throughout). The problems is that the countries we usually send students to just don't work for medicine.
US & Canada - can't study medicine as an undergrad, they'd have to do a first degree and then take med as a postgrad. possibly, but it's a long haul / cost.
Netherlands - the only English-taught medicine course has recently been discontinued.
Ireland - insanely competitive. They'd need to get 21/20 in their Bac to have a chance.
UK - since Brexit they mostly qualify as international students = insane fees.

So increasingly they are asking me about studying medicine (and vet) in other European countries - Malta, Greece, Romania, Latvia among others. I understand the 'official' line - the degrees which have been approved by the EU should be accepted across the EU. The issue is being accepted to actually work as / register as a Dr in other countries after qualifying. I suspect that the UK would snap them up, while France is very very resistant to allowing Drs trained elsewhere to register.

Anyone got experience of these courses? And their post-qualification acceptance?

But if they are French / English bi lingual
how would Greece, Latvia etc etc work?

I know of a few students who have gone to Poland (not sure where exactly), one to study medicine and the other veterinary science. By all accounts, excellent courses taught through English, and incredibly reasonable costs for on-campus accommodation (the latter being the main reason they went there).

One of DD's friends is studying medicine in Prague and enjoys it. She was shafted in the 2020 A-level algorithms, so didn't get her UK offer. The course is in English.

She is British-Bangladeshi (an observant muslim), so really has to mix and be a bit creative. She's lovely so would thrive anywhere.

DD has visited her a couple of times and it was clear that she embraced her new city.

There are many courses taught entirely in English, in European countries.

It's so hard to advise them either way. I have no doubt that many of the courses themselves and the facilities etc are probably excellent, and fantastic value for money. I just don't know how well-received their qualifications will be after graduating - here in France at least the Ordre du Medicines is highly resistant to allowing them to register, as they are felt to have unfairly skipped over the rigorous competitive element that is so highly valued here, and that they've just 'bought' their degree 🙄.

In medicine? In countries such as Latvia? Romania?

I have no experience but read this article earlier on in the week which may give some perspective.

BBC News - Why medical students are choosing Bulgaria over UK - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgz8g8jg48o?app-referrer=deep-link

Yes! Poland, Latvia, Greece, Malta, Italy, Spain, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Portugal, Turkey, Croatia, Estonia, Slovakia, Lithuania, and a few others all offer 6-year medicine courses, taught entirely in English, often in brand new purpose-built facilities and are approved by the EU.

Interesting

I read this the other day.

BBC News - Why medical students are choosing Bulgaria over UK - BBC News
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgz8g8jg48o?app-referrer=deep-link

Worth checking about the level of patient contact. Because of the language issues some come out not having had much which puts them at a real disadvantage when it comes to starting work.

Medics from Poland/Hungary etc are not uncommon in the NHS and their medical education is well regarded. This appears not to be the case with some of the newer EU countries One indication can be the entry requirements of the various medical schools. Generally the more academic courses require grades similar to Universities in the UK. A good place for further research is The Student Room, which includes students talking about their experiences.

Do they then intend to work in the EU or UK. One thing to be aware of is the massive problem with UK Doctor unemployment. 50% of those who finished F2 (the second of two foundation years) in August did not have work, and a fair proportion of the other 50% had either found work outside medicine or overseas (mainly Australia). Very few had places for speciality training. The upside is that Doctors who train overseas, and indeed who are not normally UK resident and who have not worked in the NHS, are able to compete equally are able to compete on equal terms for UK jobs and training. The UK, unlike other countries, does not give priority to UK residents, which has led to a situation where the NHS is actively recruiting from overseas but cannot offer jobs to UK medical school graduates.

It does look as if Wes Streeting is aware of the issues around medic unemployment and about access to training and intends to do something about it. As a result it may be wise for those hoping to work in the UK to be slightly cautious about the prospects of studying overseas in the hope of pursuing employment and training in the UK. It might also be a good idea to check the likely career path for those with overseas qualifications in the country they may want to work in. As you suggest, some countries, despite EU rules, might be resistant to overseas doctors registering.

DS is bilingual Italian/English and in 2016 didn’t consider studying medicine through English. It’s seen as rather second class as some (older) professors struggle to teach or assess through English.
Doing the course, foreign students on Erasmus or exchange were often seen as not worth investing time or resources like on-the-job training (strong point of an Italian medicine degree).
The only benefit he had was being able to read some textbooks in the original language and +1 point for writing his thesis directly in English!

This year a classmate of DD’s (100% in her High School exam, C1 English) failed the entrance exam to do her course through English at Pavia University. The exam included first year level Biology, Physics and Chemistry, not just language proficiency.

So maybe things have got better in the last 10 years but bear in mind that if anything is offered by the Italian government based on merit points, foreign nationals will be at the bottom of the list. That includes placement in Specialisation courses after their degree.

Just to add: to do the Pavia course you also need to have passed the Italian national entrance exam for Medicine and to be already enrolled on the normal course in Pavia. A huge commitment.

From the article:

But getting into a medical school in the UK generally requires a minimum of three As at A-level and high grades in other subjects and Freya struggled to get them.

This is what I was referring to when I suggested that entry standards can be lower elsewhere.

That and the limited patient contact can mean graduates starting on the back foot when trying to get work in what is a seriously competitive job market. Entry level NHS doctor jobs routinely get 600 or more applicants, with doctors from overseas often offering vastly more experience that newly qualified UK graduates can muster. DD, who like thousands of her peers found herself unemployed in August, has finally found some insecure (she is covering for someone who is sick) locum work - and then probably because she had worked in the hospital during F1/F2 in relevant specialities, and had strong references. Apparently even for short term work (which does not allow international applicants to gain visas) the competition was strong, with applicants from elsewhere in the UK willing to relocate short term, and despite the pay not being great.

These issues are referred to in the article:

which allows them to practice in the NHS without any further tests.
This may change though in 2028 when Britain next looks at its agreements with the EU.
And another potential change is particularly worrying some students.
The NHS has become increasingly reliant on attracting healthcare staff from overseas to meet increasing patient demand.
In 2023 68% of doctors joining the NHS were international medical graduates (IMGs) and the number has been rising year on year.

There is uncertainty around the future of qualifications medical students gain from studying in Bulgaria
Currently the NHS treats applicants from overseas and the UK in the same way for jobs and training opportunities.
This has become an increasingly contentious issue for resident (formerly known as junior) doctors in England who say many at the beginning of their career are being denied the opportunity to progress.

The UK is spending over £250,000 to train each medical student who in turn have amassed debt via student loans. Many of DC whose mums were on the medic thread nine years ago are scraping around for work or have already left for Australia. DD has a job lined up there for next summer. Each year the problem is getting worse and will need to be tackled sooner rather than later.

In short, you do need to link where you study with where you might want to work.

My DD is bilingual English Italian. We discounted the English speaking courses in non English speaking countries as they were only the first 3 years and didn’t cover clinical experience (you needed the local language for that). She does speak 2 other languages but not at the level required for medicine.

In the end the choice was between Italy and Ireland, she did the entry exam for both but an offer for Ireland came in just as she was getting her results for Italy, so she chose that. Ireland is insanely competitive, not least because the grade inflation of the leaving cert giving Irish students more points (not speculation, I’ve been told this by several people). DD did the IB and in her second year she is still slightly ahead of others on her course. She found that the first year was going over quite basic stuff that she’d covered in her IB.

Tip for IB students wanting to study Medicine in Ireland - do Higher level maths, it gives you extra points. DD only did standard level, and got fewer points because of that, despite excellent grades in her other subjects.

Yes... There are many different courses across Europe that are taught entirely in English at good universities.

Often good English is a requirement for the local undergraduates as for academic subjects many of the research journals are in English

Ireland / medicine is a non-starter for French bac students. Only the very very best students will get 18 /20 or 19/20 (top 1%), never 20/20 (‘no human is capable of perfection’) and there’s no way to ‘earn’ extra points when applying from France.

And to answer another pp, the low level of science in France is an issue. They are only doing maybe 4 hours per week in their Spé, which are considered to be A level equivalents. I’ve got one student applying to Cambridge for vet this year, and I’ve got a horrible feeling that when they look at her course content it’s going to be way below what’s expected for an A level equivalent.

In short, you do need to link where you study with where you might want to work.
It’s a big ask for a 16/17 yr old to project that far forward, especially when they already have an international profile 🤷‍♀️

My friend's daughter studies in Debrecen, in Hungary. She is doing her second year there and super happy. The course fully taught in English. This course is well-established and run for international students for a long time.
https://www.edu.unideb.hu/p/medical-degree-programs

My husband is Romanian, and my DD is bilingual, and we've looked into this. She ultimately decided to study in the UK and is now in her second year of med school.

There are a few very good medical schools in Romania (Cluj, Bucuresti, Iasi), where courses are taught in English. Admission to these is very competitive and it sometimes (not always) entails an admission exam. Tuition fees (for non-EU) in their best schools are something like €10K per year, so they aren't cheap. You can't apply with predicted grades; you need to wait to get the actual A-level grades.

We visited Cluj several years ago and met some of the foreign students there. All of them spoke highly of the course, the city, and their lives there. Cluj is a fantastic city to live in. If you speak English, French, or Romanian, you can study there. By the end of the course, most foreigners will speak some Romanian.

Here's the link for anyone interested:
https://umfcluj.ro/en/study-programmes/admission-undergraduate-studies/admission-international-candidates/

@rickyrickygrimes how would this even be possible if the student did not speak the language of their patients??? whether or not a course is taught in English, the crucial part of any heathcare degree is the placements - if you have a bilingual student fair enough but i honestly can't see how a medical degree without speaking the language of the country you are studying in can work.

How does the contact with patients work? Hungarian is a notoriously difficult language to learn. I can see how the academic elements can be delivered through English but how do they teach students how to deal with sick people?

This is exactly my point, the degree courses were the first years only, which are entirely classroom taught. Even in the Netherlands the clinical years were not included, no going near the patients without fluent Dutch. This is a country where possibly a large swathe of the populous speaks good English, can you imagine Eastern Europe?

there is also no guarantee you can get on a course in your native language for the second part of the degree.

this is why we opted not to do it.

I’m interested to know why you think “the U.K. would snap them up”? There are a lot of unemployed doctors in the U.K. at present.

I was more referring to the GMC (presumably) being ok to accept these degrees for registration, whereas in France it's very much a protected profession and it's been reported that the ordre du medecins is resistant to accepting them as equivalent of French medical training (even though they have been quality assured by the EU).

I know one girl who studied Med in Romania and one who did Vet Sci in Romania.
No idea about the conversion but they are working in The UK now