Martin Lewis changing tack on HE finance considerations

[shuggarushed]

Until recently, ML consistently encouraged all young people considering uni to not worry about finance on the grounds that if they didn't get a highly paid job then they would never have to pay back the debt/tax (he prefers to call it a tax). While true, that was an unaffordable reality for the taxpayer. Inevitably, the system was changed in 2023 and graduates of the new scheme are much more likely to pay back their debt/tax. Cue lots of discussion here on Mnet and elsewhere about whether the high cost of a degree is worth it and, now, ML is starting to weave this narrative into his journalism. Given his influence (i.e. most UK students and parents are familiar with his narratives on student finance), it'll be interesting to see what impact it has and how it evolves over coming years. For now, he's collecting stories, and treading carefully as it's obviously an emotive subject.

Example: His most recent podcast covers it in the last 10 minutes from about 1h:02m in the recording: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0m92f0w

Isnt a 4 year course a sandwich course usually?

Really? Even in the early 90s Wednesday afternoons were left free for sport.

I said Weds morning. I had Weds afternoon off. They tried to timetable us in, but the union wouldn’t let them.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow No. all undergrad masters eg MEng are 4 years and so are MFL degrees. Lots of science degrees can be extended to 4 years undergrad too. They usually bring some exemptions towards professional qualifications, eg Chartered Engineer.

Lots of industries are quite big, but they don’t need an over supply of grads! How on earth did they manage when there weren’t degrees in textile design?

Then they will be worthless. You can’t learn to the Bachelor degree level in only 2years even if Uni is year round with no summer break.

You’re forgetting that the £37/mo is only for the first year. Use this calculator to find the full amounts
https://www.student-loan-calculator.co.uk/

(I ran a calculation based on 3yr course, started in 2023 and a salary of £30k/yr
It is £34/mo for the first year. However, if that salary only increases with inflation, the total paid over 40yrs will be £114,621 not £18,000)

Give it a go because it does the maths 🧮 for you.

But a Meng is a masters? So more than a degree?

I did Fashion. Employed all my life, as were all my friends from my course.

No, actually she would repay £87,057 total on her student loans. The new plan favours high earners. Again I assumed a 3yr course. It will be higher if she takes 4yrs to the bachelor’s

You can. There are accelerated degrees that are done in two years.
They’re not very popular and tend to attract mature students who want to get a qualification as quickly as possible. They’re a full degree but obviously quite intense.

Four year courses do tend to include a year in industry- they’re are some exceptions but a course like an MEng is an integrated masters and will have an exit point of a degree.

Having a more educated society is a good thing. Populations with higher levels of qualifications tend to be healthier, pay more taxes and have lower crime rates. There are wider benefits of education beyond the transactional approach promoted in MN.

It’s awful but not as bad as when they tripled the Uni fees from £3k to £9k a year when my DC were in secondary school. I had been saving towards uni costs since they were born and then all of a sudden, I had less than 10yrs to more than triple my savings.

The Unis that do offer a 3yr degree in 2yrs are allowed to exceed the tuition cap so the total cost of the degree is the same- £27k.

Economics is something you need to get a post graduate degree in to get a job imho. For example, my DD is doing History. I warned her that she would have to either decide to get a Masters in Education to teach History in schools, or get a Masters in Museum/Heritage curation to work in a museum/at a historical site or go all the way and get a PhD to teach at Uni and do research.

For many humanities you can’t stop at the BA and get a job other than wait staff or housekeeping.

? Surely that depends on the University? The kind you describe as easier and less work than a mediocre sixth form must be the bottom of the barrel printing off degrees that are as useful as toilet paper.

@Stressedoutmum04 He will be in a tiny minority then! However many will do a masters. He will get something but he should analyse why he’s not getting anything so far.

I know they exist, but their quality rating is abysmal, which is why I say you can’t learn to that level in only 2yrs. Not really.

MEng at most universities are
4yrs course work not including a 1yr work placement in industry that occurs either after your 2nd or 3rd year.

so it is 5 years total. Students can opt to drop the final year of the MEng course, most often this happens when they get a job offer from the work placement and leave with only BEng. Students can also opt to do all 4yrs to the MEng with no work placement year but instead do shorter 2-3mo summer internships.

We maybe need to reframe degrees that are needed by society and courses which need to have jobs created for them to be of any use. My degree was in Public Health

How depressing. We still need actors and writers and artists. These are the things that make life tolerable.

You can, and lots do.
They’re not suited to all subjects or students but they can work.
I have one in my department and it works really well. Has excellent graduate outcomes and NSS scores.
It outperforms some of my 3 year degrees.

Yes I know. I work at a university.

If she's just started her 3rd year there's quite a lot of time left to go to secure a grad job. I did that degree years ago and we all got grad jobs around May. It's also debatable as to whether it's worth concentrating on the degree to get the best possible grade or heavily applying for jobs as that's time consuming. Things like investment banking grad schemes are very hard to get on to so worth trying other things, one did accountancy which used to be easier to get and then can enter inv banking after. Or corporate banks or civil service economics. It's worth seeing where applications are failing, I could never do those spinning shape tests as I can't tell left from right. The person who I know got an offer from an IB first round aced those tests but was weaker at degree (2:2)

Oh, I thought you said

"My dd has just started and does 4 full days a week and Weds morning.
I did 5 full days a week."

I did. I forgot about Wednesday afternoon off.

The other problem is the stagnation of wages in many/most parts of the job market, combined with the rise in minimum wage. It is consequently much harder for graduates to get jobs that pay significantly above minimum wage (at least initially) unless they are getting onto the really high-paying/prestigious grad schemes and fast tracks etc.

For instance working in museum/heritage/libraries industry needs a masters as well as undergrad degree but look how much even quite senior roles in those industries pay, let alone “entry” level (where entry requires masters + volunteering/placement/experience)

@DameWishalot That’s absolutely correct. Grad wages have been pretty static for over 10 years. There have always been lower paying grad jobs but people think they are nursing and teaching. This is absolutely not the case. The state pays reasonably well but other jobs, eg Charity sector, aren’t great. There’s still many jobs that pay well but too many grads aren’t good enough to get them.