Martin Lewis changing tack on HE finance considerations

[shuggarushed]

Until recently, ML consistently encouraged all young people considering uni to not worry about finance on the grounds that if they didn't get a highly paid job then they would never have to pay back the debt/tax (he prefers to call it a tax). While true, that was an unaffordable reality for the taxpayer. Inevitably, the system was changed in 2023 and graduates of the new scheme are much more likely to pay back their debt/tax. Cue lots of discussion here on Mnet and elsewhere about whether the high cost of a degree is worth it and, now, ML is starting to weave this narrative into his journalism. Given his influence (i.e. most UK students and parents are familiar with his narratives on student finance), it'll be interesting to see what impact it has and how it evolves over coming years. For now, he's collecting stories, and treading carefully as it's obviously an emotive subject.

Example: His most recent podcast covers it in the last 10 minutes from about 1h:02m in the recording: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0m92f0w

Every other kid seems to choose Law (and often not at a very good place), Criminology or Psychology. There must be a huge over-supply of these graduates. I’m sure none are informed in advance that jobs like on the telly are a bit thin on the ground.

Then there is the talk of making the law qualifying exams easier to accommodate those not up to them. No!! Get rid Law-type degrees at tenth-rate institutions.

All valid points for the discussion but Martin Lewis is a financial journalist. He’s not a regulated financial advisor. Who knows what his agenda his, as it won’t be his alone.

I think that would make a lot of sense. Better prep for the world of work not having 40% of the year off.

So, what to do? Without a crystal ball you can’t make any sort of decision.

Sod’s law that you’d pay off student loan in one go and an amnesty would be announced. Or your young person would chuck in their career as an investment banker and decide to live off-grid.

My DCs I suppose will be decent mid-earners. It’s a conundrum.

No you are right, it isn't even two days of teaching.

For a vast amount of degrees the volume of study is no where near a full time job, it isn't even as remotely onerous as A levels at even a mediocre 6th form.

Fees don't just cover teaching. Those fees have to also cover heating, electricity, upkeep of buildings, IT platforms and subscriptions, library books and library subscriptions, estates staff, careers and employability services, placements staff, course admin, timetable team, Registry, marketing, student recruitment, admissions, catering staff, HR, finance, disability, well being, international team, academics skills staff, IT support staff, research support staff ....I've probably forgotten loads.

In my department we guarantee students 2 days of no teaching because they need that time for placements and part time jobs.

Attending university is not just about studying IMO. Used wisely it gives all sorts of other opportunities. DD did a humanities degree with 9 hours a week contact time. Apart from studying/writing essays, she used her time to volunteer at and eventually Chair a young people's theatre/arts festival. She also worked part time work supporting a young man with ASD to attend a social theatre group and worked in a pub. Her extra curricular activities came up in her interviews after graduating and, in her opinion, were an important part in her success in getting onto a competitive graduate scheme that was not linked in any way to humanities, theatre or social care.

The plan 5 loans run @ RPI flat so they are not higher than available on the high street for unsecured students (with no assets!). However, earlier plans had higher rates - and even escalating higher rates as your income rose. It’s one of the oddities in the system that when the terms change it’s only for new students - older students are stuck with all the problems of the earlier systems.

There is considerable “inter-generational” unfairness for graduates depending when they did their degree because the plans have changed so much. And of course, those who introduced fees and continue to raise fees got their university education for free.

The analysis for introducing fees was flawed because it was backward-looking - based on a historical graduate premium. They expanded supply of students and didn’t seem to realise that the premium would inevitably reduce - economics 101. The reality today is that lots of graduates are working minimum wage, or just above minimum wage.

The main issue facing 18 year olds and their parents should be not whether to self fund but whether to go to university at all.

Yes this is a very important point. The degree is almost the box that just needs ticking and then employers want to know about all your soft skills and your values. Whether this is a phase of recruiting style or a permanent feature , who knows. It seems odd that you spend 3/4 years studying and yet for employers that’s the least interesting thing about you. Why not go to the university of life skills?

There is a significant over supply of law students/law conversion students. The SQE is also a gruelling (and expensive) exam which doesn't suit all learning types. It is a single best answer type exam (so there are lots of very similar possible answers) which means you really need to know the subject in very great detail. There is no room for waffle and it is designed for kids who do well in highly pressurised exam situations. You also only get three attempts before being disqualified from the process. The chances of it changing yet again when we've just had such a significant change in qualification requirements are practically zero. We don't need it to be easier we need it to be harder since we simply don't need junior lawyers much anymore and this is likely to be the case more and more as AI develops.

I started my training contract almost 30 years ago and it was tough then but the supply was much lower. Now anyone can buy their way onto a law degree and kids are encouraged to convert their degrees at great cost (and they often do this simply because they don't have any other ideas - rather like the "panic masters" students).

This thread isn't about that but it's a real issue in the profession.

I got summer jobs and earned enough with grants to get me though the next uni year - not sure that's as easy to do now it's like teen saturday jobs not all areas seem to have them.

The main reason I don't think think they'll go down to 2 years is staff. DH a lecturer he already doing a lot of extra hours with admin, course design and keeping abreast of new develpments in his fast moving field and research - if summers go when that supposed to happen when it's alreadysa struggle to fit in.

Plus from what I've heard the government say they want the research uni do to keep going as like training UK bussiness as a whole do not like to invest in R&D as much as needed.

As a parent I worry about the debt - but looking round there's not a huge number of options for 18 year olds here anyway - a degree does open more doors.

My own dad had to get one with OU and I met many people in last location we lived who either went to uni as mature studenst or studied with OU as not having a degree was impeading their careers.

I don't think the current system is sustainable - but I don't think the current government will do much but tinker and pile more debt onto young people.

I don't think that's correct. Contact time may well be circa 10-12 hours but the students are expected to use the rest of the c40 hours a week available to them to do all of the reading and preparation required. If they choose to do less then thats on them since they are treated as adults and expected to make sensible decisions.

@Notanorthener DD's degree provided her with lots of transferrable skills which are valued by employers - critical thinking, research, communication (written and oral), analysis, problem-solving and time management - so not a tick box exercise plus she loved and still loves the subject. My point is that uni gives you time and opportunities to gain other useful skills and experiences which are also valued by employers. However, it is up to the individual to grab the opportunties. Other than working in the bar and meeting his future wife, DS did not take full advantage. As far as I can tell, he spent most of his time at uni gaming and playing football with very little studying. In his case, the degree was a box he had to tick to enter his profession at graduate level.

@womananddog I'd argue that meeting one's future wife is one of the greatest advantages of university ;)

VAT on university fees by 2030 I reckon

I think there are way to many course/degrees now which lead to nothing. People take them because they want the Uni experience - this for me should be stopped and if this means Uni have to get smaller/merge then fair enough.

What degrees do you think lead to ‘nothing’ .

@HighLadyofTheNightCourt Depends why dc want the degree and what “something” looks like and who is paying for it. We have a huge over supply of law grads for example. Those who fail to be solicitors or barristers can usually get work though. Performing arts grads - very difficult to get graduate work . The IFS ranked degrees in terms of life time earnings. Quite a few degrees pay the holders less than non degree holders. No doubt those with the degrees enjoyed them but getting grad work is very difficult so the state, in effect, pays for the degrees as the grads don’t pay back their loans.

My dd has just started and does 4 full days a week and Weds morning.

I did 5 full days a week.

I think some degree courses which sound odd do translate into jobs or adjacent jobs. Perhaps they should be rebranded as HE courses though rather than degrees.

Some, however, I would take an axe to. Creative Writing. It’s a hobby! And Journalism - might as well do Spinning Jenny Studies.

My dd was told equivalent to 35 hour a week. She gets lots of work to do at home on top of days in.

What’s wrong with journalism? My ds did that. He’s a journalist on national media now.

I think some degree courses which sound odd do translate into jobs or adjacent jobs. Perhaps they should be rebranded as HE courses though rather than degrees.

What benefit do you think this would have? If it's a degree then it's a degree. It's a word which is recognised internationally and is part of a recognised qualification framework.

Some, however, I would take an axe to. Creative Writing. It’s a hobby! And Journalism - might as well do Spinning Jenny Studies.

In the UK the labour market is skills based. 80% of graduate jobs don't require a specific degree subject, they are more interested in the skills students develop. Both of these courses support students to develop skills which are valued by employers.

And ‘Spinning Jenny studies’

Textiles is one of the UK’s biggest employers.

A number of the fine arts, religion, film studies etc. I don't doubt individuals interest or work ethic to do these degrees but post employment stats are quite low. Therefore if they are taking out loans to pay for them there is a question of if they should be 4 year courses which may not lead to a role (in that field).

i appreciate that some people will get jobs and there are many others that won't. When I was at school Uni was the exception rather than the norm as it is now.