Best unis for maths

[Dangermouse999]

DS is in y12 and we’re looking at going to some uni open days.

He’s planning to apply for Maths and is probably on track to get 4 A stars in Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Comp Sci.

He's considering the following:

1st tier: Cambridge/Oxford, Warwick
2nd tier: Bath, St Andrews, Durham, maybe Edinburgh and Bristol
3rd tier: Exeter, Lancaster, Southampton, Loughborough.

He prefers a smaller to medium size town, definitely not London and he's not a big partying kind of person.

Does anyone have any experience of these unis / other suggestions / any advice in general for Maths degrees?

Hi, @Muu9 - glad to share what I can about Physics, and I won’t step out of my lane.

I apologise for not addressing the ESAT earlier. It is so new that there isn’t much data yet. The comments just upthread are interesting.

Obviously it is a hurdle but it is more on the order of the TMUA than STEP. It is taken ahead of interview and before the A level curriculum is completed; the results are used to inform decisions on who gets interviews or (when interviews are not used) offers. These are not easy tests but they recognise that the curriculum has not been completed and they (are intended to) focus on core aspects that all candidates will have learnt early in Y13.

Part of the reason STEP is so brutal is that Cambridge use it as a selection tool, deliberately making two offers for each Maths place and setting the STEP grade boundaries (nationwide) to fit their needs.

Hi, @Onvacation -

I am sorry that your DD feels intimidated by the comments of others. In itself, I think that means absolutely nothing. But it is important for her to work out the type of programme she wants.

Are her teachers helpful and encouraging of her? If so they may be able to give her some good guidance. Is some if the intimidation possibly down to surging testosterone? That does play a role through the UG years and beyond, but it isn’t correlated (or anti-correlated) to achievement. You just need to learn to ignore it. Teachers and lecturers do, but I have a lot of sympathy because I remember how annoying and yes, intimidating, it can be.

Your question about timing is excellent. I agree with @user1469447079 that trying too much too soon could backfire , when the reason the practice papers look hard is that you haven’t learnt the material yet. Perhaps the Christmas holiday would be a good time to start, gently - start with questions having familiar themes.

MEI also has prep materials (hopefully including past papers and answer keys) for MAT and TMUA, as well as general guidance on test prep, etc. I don’t know whether they offer (paid, but reasonably priced) group tuition for these exams. If so the sessions will be advertised online and tend to book up quickly.

Could DD work with a study buddy? Often, though not always, it works well. Explaining things to each other solidifies their own knowledge. Even if DD is the more studious or talented, spending an hour or two a week helping a friend is in her own interest.

STEP problems are more intricate than the others. As prep for MAT/TMUA I would leave them until later and only if feeling pretty confident.

As with all higher level revisions, the main thing is to concentrate on active learning and not just memorising the solutions.

Best wishes to DD

This is a good idea, with the caveat that schools sometimes adjust the curriculum so pupils should not worry about unfamiliar concepts (after making sure they have not missed anything).

Stephen Siklos was the lead STEP examiner for a long time. His materials are excellent. The resources at the Cambridge STEP site are free, and Siklos’ books ate available at moderate cost.

However, at the initial stages of preparation pupils capable of succeeding at STEP may find these a bit terse and become discouraged. It may be helpful to work with a study buddy or small group.

A small group can also share the cost of a tutor and may find this very helpful.

Very useful thread! My DS is also applying for maths. He has decided to apply for Oxford rather than Cambridge precisely because of the STEP issue. We have a family friend who is a brilliant mathematician but missed out on Cambridge because of STEP.

His other choices so far are Imperial, St Andrews, Durham and… somewhere else TBC. He is very able but also very laidback so we’ll see what happens!

My brother had an offer from Cambridge for a STEM subject (obvs many years ago) and missed out because of a slipped grade. He went to his insurance choice, but all the accommodation was taken by then, so he had to live miles away. That had a very negative impact on him and he ended up dropping out. So I’m a bit anxious about the practicalities of an insurance offer.

Any additional thoughts on Lancaster for maths? Its DS's likely first choice (as he did a summer school with the department and loves the campus) even though he has the predicted grades (A-star, A-star, A) to get offers from the "Tier 2" unis as identified by the OP.

I went to the open day with DD19. I liked it but she preferred other places (possibly too close to home as it’s half an hour by car to the campus). It’s one of those places that has a great rep all round without joining the RG party.

I agree with @ButterPiesAreGreat

Lancaster Maths was a UK Top 10 in the 2021 REF (the most recent) and has a strong reputation for Teaching and Learning. There is much to like - it is the whole package.

Individual students will or will not be drawn to a campus based university in a small city on the edge of the Lake District. That will be a big part of the decision.

Thanks for the input, very valuable insight given your and DH's background in maths/unis.

I mentioned in my original post that DS is not particularly keen on moving to a large city which rules out all the alternatives you gave to Exeter. I made a longlist based on top 20 appearances in the main uni rankings for maths excluding cities with a population greater than 250k.

DS is open to visiting for example Imperial and UCL in London, but I think he prefers the idea of Cambridge or Warwick at this early stage.

Out of interest, which maths school does your child attend? KCLMS?

I've seen kids post elsewhere that they spent 300 plus hours on STEP prep and started 12-18 months before taking the test.

AFAIK Cambridge is also the only uni that mandates you must do two STEP papers and get at least a Grade 1 in both.

All the other unis that may accept it in lieu of MAT or TMUA say you have to do at least one STEP paper and only need a Grade 2. I'm guessing many applicants will still do both papers though.

It is also 15 mins by train to Preston where there is a lot more going on. Also very student-y. (And better football ;-) ) And Morecambe is on your doorstep so you are close to the coast.

The main issues with living in Lancaster is traffic really. Some work has been done with the Bay Gateway link road but the city centre still gets congested. Also, traffic north of Preston (and often further south) gets very busy most weekends over the summer and before big holidays. Everything is headed for the Lakes or Blackpool and if the M6 gets closed, the alternative routes are horrendous. All this shouldn't affect a student unless they have a car, but it might impact families visiting, dropping off or collecting students.

Lancaster seems quite a long way from any big/party cities (Blackpool excluded perhaps!) so I imagine it's an attractive uni for the more outdoorsy or less partying types.

Think there are a few clubs there. One of my friend’s daughters graduated from there this summer and the clubs ran party nights where you could bring your parents to rave. There are several clubs in Preston too which as I said is 15 mins by train.

Sorry, OP - I was not sure how compelling the objection was.

Sheffield does not have a big city vibe. No more than Edinburgh IMO. B’ham does, of course, but the university is a bucolic, campus university with its own train station, FWIW.

(Applauds @poetryandwine's use of "bucolic").

I agree that some of the big cities don't really have that vibe. I would include Leicester abd Newcastle, tho I suspect your ds is aiming higher than either if them.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that DS has already visited most of the largest cities in England over the last 3-4 years including all the biggest northern ones. It's just his preference but who knows, he might visit a London uni like Imperial and change his mind.

We're going to the Warwick Open day next month so at least he'll start to have some frame of reference to begin comparing other unis/cities and courses, and ultimately start to hone in on what he really wants.

I would also advise you to be careful putting too much emphasis on how amazing these top universities are just a couple of weeks into sixth form, it’s a huge jump up from a GCSEs and kids who got straight a stars can find themselves getting b’s. Not saying your dc will be definitely talk up finding the best fit for them over ranking until this year is complete, you’ll have far more idea once they take mocks in June. I’ve seen so many “star” students including my dd start to do less well in sixth form and feeling they have failed despite them doing really well, just not Cambridge well (she got b’s not A’s)

I made a longlist based on top 20 appearances in the main uni rankings for maths excluding cities with a population greater than 250k.

I don't mean to be a pedant @Dangermouse999 but you are aware that Warwick uni is situated in Coventry? It is a city with a much larger population than 250k. It's true that a decent proportion of students live in Leamington in their later years but the main campus is very much in Coventry and that is where he'd likely be housed in the first year.

Yes, I’m aware where Warwick is. We have friends whose kids go there.

It’s not an exact science in terms of city size and there might be a bit of a trade off versus the course. The big cities I mentioned to him were London, Manchester and Birmingham and he’s said he’s not so keen on any of those.

I understand. I didn't want to be patronising; I've just known of quite a few people who assumed that the university itself is in Warwick.

Good luck on the open days. These are so helpful for getting the 'vibe' of a place.

We’re taking our DD to Warwick on Friday. Yes it’s technically in Coventry but it is a campus and feels very distinct from the city (we’ve been several times for open and offer days). After the first year most students live in Leamington Spa which is much smaller, or there are a few private student blocks but they’re on the edge of campus. I’m sure some students elect to live in Coventry proper, but there are other options.

There has been for the first time a shortage of student accommodation on campus this year for a variety of reasons, which were not well communicated and were not revealed until after results day. This meant many students, ours included, were left worrying if they’d secure on campus housing, which is one of the reasons many kids opt for Warwick. Some first years have been put in private accommodation just off campus but they’ve grouped first years and I believe their rent is being subsidised so it’s in line with Warwick accom.

After a stressful week or so it seems most students are happy with the off campus halls (which look very nice indeed) and this should be a short term problem with a few halls under renovation, but if living on campus is important, I would definitely query this on open day. I also wonder if Warwick will change its current policy of making a certain amount of on campus halls available to second and third years. Again, something to ask about if it’s of potential interest.

Finally, I would also point out that DD has been assigned quite a bit of pre term maths refresher work. She wouldn’t mind - after all, she loves maths or else wouldn’t have opted to study it - but there was a lot to do and it was only very recently posted ie last week perhaps? I know there were several units and quizzes and then there’s a 2 hour test they have to complete by start of term which isn’t available until this Thursday (move in weekend, as mentioned, is this one coming). It’s meant some of the fun trips and activities we had planned for her last week at home have been curtailed. I’m sure the work will only be helpful but I point it out so future students will know in advance! And maybe so they could issue a plea to have it set by early rather than mid Sept!

@Justlurkingmostly my ds graduated from Warwick four years ago and I agree it feels very separate from the city of Coventry. He lived in Coventry in years two and three and it was cheaper than Leamington (not as pretty, though!) and three of them shared a 4 bed house with two bathrooms so quite spacious and comfortable. Leamington is lovely (Dh and I lived there thirty years ago) but getting the bus into campus can be a pain and forces you to stay on campus all day as going to and fro wastes so much time.

yes I agree re Warwick – DD loved it (not for maths) tho didn't end up going there. But we went there a couple of times and while I agree the campus is on the edge of Coventry, and not very near Warwick, it really doesn't feel as tho it’s in the city at all. Different I would say from, for example, Leeds or Manchester.

Tbf you could say the same to some extent about Nottingham – yes a big city and students of course go into the city for nights out, but equally some or even many will spend most of their time on the lovely campus.