Best unis for maths

[Dangermouse999]

DS is in y12 and we’re looking at going to some uni open days.

He’s planning to apply for Maths and is probably on track to get 4 A stars in Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Comp Sci.

He's considering the following:

1st tier: Cambridge/Oxford, Warwick
2nd tier: Bath, St Andrews, Durham, maybe Edinburgh and Bristol
3rd tier: Exeter, Lancaster, Southampton, Loughborough.

He prefers a smaller to medium size town, definitely not London and he's not a big partying kind of person.

Does anyone have any experience of these unis / other suggestions / any advice in general for Maths degrees?

@Dangermouse999 our school
also emphasised that they would only authorise 2 days for university open days across year 12 and 13.

ds took 3 days in year 12 for this purpose (he’s applying to Oxford so we started looking at other options too) and they have authorised them all and not said anything. In our case as long as they’re sure that’s what you are actually doing and you are serious about applying, it doesn’t seem to matter.

so many are held on weekdays in term time that it would be impossible to limit to only missing 2 days of school if you want to see where you’re applying to.

Our maths school seem to support university open days. They will be taking students to Oxford or Cambridge (their choice) and sending them in small groups to visit other universities. It obviously helps that most will do maths or maths related courses.

Still, it’s better than nothing and you can avoid the risk of ending up somewhere you hate because you didn’t visit it.

Of course - I ended up going to a uni I had never visited or even seen online. Luckily it worked out but there’s no substitute for actually visiting and getting a feel for the city.

DD is applying to Oxford, Imperial, Warwick, St Andrews and no 5 not decided but maybe LSE

Has she not been advised to included a slightly lower ranked university as insurance?

She is doing same as her brother, the insurance will be very slightly lower (DS’s insurance was that the 2nd A star wasn’t specified so very little in it, but he got his 1st choice anyway). She got all 9’s at GCSE and said she will re-apply the following year if she didn’t get into any of her top choices. Tried to suggest a lower offer but her choice I guess.

Hi, OP -

DH is a Russell Group maths professor in the tier just below COWI and I am a former RG STEM admissions tutor in a maths adjacent subject. Between us we have opinions on many RG Schools of Maths.

I like your list. I’ve been skim-reading, but a couple of points I’ve not seen emphasised (and might have missed):

St Andrews Maths is about as competitive as Oxbridge. It isn’t particularly exceptional for research but the Teaching and Learning and Student Satisfaction are extremely high. You called it ‘second tier’. I would not consider it in any way to be a more likely prospect than Oxbridge, even for an applicant predicted four A stars.

Glasgow isn’t on your list. In the last Research Exercise Framework (2021), Glasgow came tops in Scotland and was a UK Top 10. They are strong in the Pure specialisms likely to appeal to someone who likes CS. Student satisfaction is generally high. The university is in the lovely West End. (In Scotland DS could go for Y2 entry if preferred)

Also, Edinburgh is facing budget cuts of 10% pa for the foreseeable which is bound to have wide ranging impacts. TBF, this is to prevent a crisis (whether it is necessary seems debatable) and we don’t have a clear picture of what’s happening with the sector as a whole.

Having said that , DH knows a number of wonderful academics at both places.

PP is correct that Warwick now accepts the TMUA. I am glad that DS understands, at least in theory, the hurdle that STEP creates. I was prepared to say something because few candidates do seem to grasp this, but will refrain. In his place I would defo try the TMUA for Durham, Warwick, etc.

BTW DH assures me that Warwick is definitely recognised as a top Mathematics destination by mathematicians worldwide.

I am not sure why Exeter is on the list? If DS loves the place that’s reason enough, but from a mathematical perspective it’s ….. fine.

I’ve always thought highly of Bath and Lancaster so I was glad to see both of those. Loughborough is internationally known for STEM T&L and has great Student Satisfaction. Southampton is fine and I understand the appeal. Personally I would replace Exeter with one of Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield, but again DS may have his reasons.

Finally, I have seen far too much evidence that absolutely anyone can mess up their exams. Badly. So when it comes to his Insurance choice, I recommend to DS as to anyone that he allow for two dropped grades on a three grade offer - an Insurance offer of A star AA or lower. Unless he prefers to risk a gap year, of course. That’s slowly becoming more acceptable in Maths but some of the best Schools will require evidence that you are keeping up during the gap year. Some don’t like it at all.

Best wishes to DS.

@poetryandwineIf you wouldn’t mind, could you explain a little more about “the hurdle that STEP creates”, as I’m also trying to figure this out with my DS and can’t quite make sense of it. Also, is the same hurdle created by ESAT for Natural Sciences? If you’d be able to explain, or signpost somewhere that makes it clear, I’d be enormously grateful!

@LemonVerbenaGeranium I think she is referring to the fact mentioned earlier in the thread that;

Cambridge makes 2 offers for every place.
Step is taken with A levels and results given on A level results day.
This means half of offer holders find out on results day that they did not do well enough in STEP to get their first choice.

These are generally straight A* students.

If my DS decides to try for Cambridge I will support him but I am not encouraging it. I would be happier with Warwick as also think the longer terms would suit him better.

Yes, @LemonVerbenaGeranium , @friendsDisUnited explained it in a nutshell.

STEP is also the most difficult of the university Maths admissions tests by some distance. My hypothesis is that partly because the material used to solve the problems is A level and FM material and the candidates are the cream of the crop, many or most of them may underestimate the difficulty of STEP and fail to prepare adequately.

Also, STEP requires creativity, novel thinking patterns and the ability to combine known concepts in new ways. Each of these is a cognitive leap, and not a welcome one for those who are drawn to Maths for its predictability as even some of the brightest are. (There is nothing wrong with this attitude, but no COWI Maths degree programme is about the predictability of the subject and such candidates would likely be happier elsewhere. )

Cambridge have some excellent STEP prep materials, but they may feel intimidating as the primary source. MEI have taken over from the Advanced Mathematics Support Network (?), which used to provide a lot of free online resources and offer low cost in person tuition also.

I think the free online resources, or hopefully many of them, have migrated to MEI. I believe MEI is offering some tuition as well. It goes fast!

STEP will always be a differentiator because of the genuine cognitive challenges I mentioned above. But training can go a long, long way. Anyone who is serious about Cambridge should give themselves their best chance by preparing well. You will see within a few weeks of serious work what a difference it makes. Even if you don’t end up at Cambridge, it will make you a better mathematician. That’s the most important thing.

Very best wishes to all STEP candidates

We were shown around the maths college last year by a Cambridge applicant. She said she was spending more time on her STEP preparation than each of her 3 A levels.

PS Cambridge themselves recommend that candidates spend one year preparing for STEP.

Memorising past papers isn’t enough as tbe problems do not relate neatly to those from previous papers. But genuinely learning to work past papers is a great experience. The online forum The Student Room is a good place to get advice from recent successful STEP examinees

@poetryandwine I would hugely appreciate your advice on where (and when) my DD should start with MAT and TMUA preparation, and whether or not it is worthwhile/beneficial for her to use some of the STEP materials. She is interested in Maths at University, but she is a little intimidated by everyone saying how hard it is. She is doing Maths and FM, and is in Y12 so has only just started. But I’m not sure how much Maths she needs to have done before she starts. My thinking is that the prep for these tests will help her work out if University level Maths is for her, but she will need to get used to it not simply being about having the technique and getting the answer. If you have any thoughts on when/how/with what resources to get started, I would be hugely grateful!

Whether or not you have any suggestions to that, I do want to say how generous and constructive your advice always is!

You need a fair bit of Y12 knowledge before trying these tests, so I’d suggest late into Y12 or next summer. You can selectively find some questions to do earlier, but she shouldn’t feel like she can tackle it all for a while yet.

@poetryandwine Thank you very much, that’s really helpful. How would you categorise the ESAT in terms of difficulty and what’s the best way to approach preparation in your experience?

I can’t speak to ESAT preparation but in terms of difficulty — my DD prepped the TMUA but also had a look at many STEP questions at a summer school and for general prep purposes. She said both maths elements of ESAT by comparison (she was helping a friend revise) were “easy” fwiw.

We have been advised these tests will become accessible in 6 months. In the meantime the senior Ukmt is a good place to start. The very top achievers from this go forward to the Olympiad so again once comfortable with ukmt move onto Olympiad past papers. The ukmt is set out so the first questions are easy and they get progressively harder.

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Cambridge lets applicants who haven't been admitted yet lead tours?
And I thought each Cambridge college has maths subjects rather than there being a single college for maths

Do you have any knowledge on Physics/theoretical physics/astrophysics?

@Justlurkingmostly that makes sense considering how little time per question ESAT gives you compared to STEP
@friendsDisUnited Steven Siklos has two books on STEP questions which I think are better for STEP prep than Olympiad questions

I assumed 'Maths college' as in, the specialist sixth form college the poster's DC was considering for yr12, not one of the colleges at the University of Cambridge?

Yes I did mean we were shown round a sixth form college by a y13 applying to Cambridge. Was interesting to hear how many hours she was putting into STEP preparation.
@Muu9 we are talking about students who haven’t studied maths since taking their GCSEs in June, I don’t see any point in trying to do STEP preparation without having studied any A level content but perhaps I am wrong.

@Onvacation ds started his TMUA and MAT preparation as soon as he’d sat his AS levels, so during May half term of year 12.

With a few weeks to go, he’s just starting to feel that a good score is a possibility 🤞🏻