Oxford reality check : just how hard do they work the students and if terms are short cant they relax ?

[Realitycheck1]

Ds doesn't want to go far away for uni ,lots of reasons and I'm happy with that. Oxford is actually very close and London but he doesn't want a city like London

Predicted 3 a stars

Really liked the open day and some colleges but has been put off by reading about the 5 week burnout and the volume of essays each week.

However on the open day one of our guides said yes it's hard work but easier than a levels !

Ds doesn't feel he would cope .
But I think if he...hard working naturally motivated studious student can't cope who can

I fully appreciate Oxford is Oxford but the other pluses for us are, it's so close , it's so much cheaper !
It's cosy.

I'm disappointed he's been put off to even try

There is only one other uni he likes.

What I can't understand is with such incredibly short terms don't they get time to relax ??

I was there many years ago but I don't think the work load has changed that much.

It's intense for the 8 weeks. We used to joke that we had to fit not just 10 weeks of work into those 8 weeks, but also 10 weeks of socialising.
But there were people who spent all their waking hours working - and those, like someone I know who said they may have "only" got a 2:2 in biochemistry, but they got a 1st in punting and croquet!
You got the real clever ones who never seemed to do any work, and still cruised through at the top, and the people who you checked the library before their room when you were looking for them.

Honestly, I never felt overworked. I used to keep a little diary where I noted down how long I'd worked. I aimed for 36-40 hours a week. There were weeks when I went over, but never by ridiculous amounts. I played sport for the college and uni, I did other groups a couple of times a week, we went out to Burger King and sat and chatted all evening. etc.

There was also a feeling of because the colleges were smaller, there is potentially more individual help.
In fresher's week we had talks from all sorts, finance, library, subject, president of the college, JCR etc. Every one, including the library one was dominated by telling us where to go for help if we were struggling and how to manage. My tutors were very old-school, but if you had an issue were there to help.
I knew a couple of people who did have struggles for various reasons, and they were able to access help which worked for them.

I will say though that because it is intense they are very unkeen on not living in, especially in the first year. I think you had to get special dispensation, and they strongly discouraged it. I would check that if he really wants to live at home.

Oh yes for Oxford I think you have to live within 6 miles of carfax tower or some similar rule. dH and I were discussing the big statute book we were meant to read before we went!

We have found the pastoral care at Oxford to be excellent. If he hasn't visited Cambridge might be worth visiting to see if he prefers there. I preferred Cambridge to Oxford when I went as preferred course / was less posh but my DD went with Oxford and loves it too. There's very few who leave.

I studied a science subject at Oxford and it really wasn't a great fit for me - I struggled academically all the way through, though I scraped through with a low 2.1 at the end. I found the whole experience very stressful. I didn't really gel with anyone in my college so I did a lot of socialising via societies and clubs. I went to Oxford from a northern comprehensive and got a lot of ridicule for my accent, and some very snobby comments about my background.

I did a further degree at a London university and had the best three years of my life, but managed to get decent grades as well; and I've since done postgraduate study and excelled at it with very little effort. Outside of the Oxford ecosystem I am a fairly high achiever, but I was definitely the thick one in my subject in my year!

Going to Oxford gave me a lot of confidence and polish. I work in one of the traditional professions, in private practice, and most of my clients are high net worth individuals; I think the soft skills I picked up at Oxford help me to feel at ease in that environment. But I suspect I'd have ended up in the same job if I'd gone to my second choice university, and I'd have been a lot less stressed!

I would say this was my experience too. It was very intense.

And like pp the lectures and tutorials weren't particularly aligned so it's very self led.

What are the downsides to the tutor structure? I've only ever heard positives about the 1:1 or 1:2 attention.

The only downside is remember was the large amount of chocolate cake I required after my one on one Greek Lit supervisons with one particular prof. They were hard work, if brilliant, but I was always so drained I could barely drag myself to the cake shop to replenish my sugar levels.

I’d say a downside is the intensity. Unfortunately, and like everywhere, not all tutors are pleasant so it can be a very stressful experience with nowhere to hide. Even more so if you’re on your own! Also, if there is a variability in quality between tutors for the same module, it can be quite unfair. Additionally, if you’re someone who likes to hear a diversity and breadth of perspectives like you might get in a seminar you don’t get that. I really valued my further studies where I was in a larger group where everyone brought something different and challenged my thinking.

Another downside in my experience was the lack of contact time. I had just one tutorial a week for some modules. As mentioned, lectures are often not great, sometimes not obviously aligned with the subject material so eight hours is not a lot! If your tutor isn’t great then it can be very stressful trying to gain the depth of knowledge required for finals, which are incredibly rigorous.

Again, my experience was a few years ago now and I do hope things have changed but would be doubtful that they have.

A lot will be about fit. Is the culture right. Perhaps not for someone who already puts too much pressure on themselves. How much intellectual headroom is there. Someone who is really gifted will have more space than someone who has had to slog to get in. How much do you enjoy the course. Is Oxford the ideal course or does another course align better with your interests and ambitions. As mentioned above do you have somewhere to go over vacations, where you will have time to sleep and catch up. This was not the case for some international students that DC knew, and who would have been happier in London with a larger community to spend the Christmas vacation with.

A decade ago but when DS met up with his old classmates during the first Christ, some were happy at University, others weren't. There was not an obvious difference between the Oxbridge cohort. Some then settled but others didn't and a couple left early, one to transfer to the US and another for MH reasons.

As touched on above the college system can be a problem. The one who left for the US was taking a smaller subject and the college tutor was completely uninterested in undergraduates, to the extent that the student felt they were having to teach themselves. Depending on subject, the tutor problem may be getting more acute. Apparently colleges have agree that tutors will be paid the same, regardless of subject. Over time some subjects have become more popular than others with pressure to grow UG and (lucrative) Masters student numbers. Such growth has not been matched by much growth in PhD and post doc funding in those subjects. At the same time the competition for the sorts of jobs PhDs and postdocs want has grown, as the crisis in HE funding both in the UK, US and elsewhere leading to a contraction in vacancies. More than ever the sensible PhD/postdoc needs to prioritise their own research. Teaching experience is nice to have, but is time consuming and not that well paid.

I understand, though academics who actually know stuff can correct, that the shortage of tutors is leading to an ad hoc cap on student numbers in some subjects. And possibly a greater unevenness of tutor quality.

In my subject, I believe there’s been some restructuring to bring the lectures into better alignment with the papers, but not sure how far it’s gone.

I'm not sure about Oxford being cheaper - DC1 has two friend studying there and they both say rent is at London levels.

Just on here as someone who has taught in Oxford as well as studying there to follow up on some queries people posted.

1. Oxford private rental is London-level expensive but accommodation in the colleges is heavily subsidised, plus you only have to pay for 24 weeks a year. So it is a lot cheaper. If you are renting a room in a shared house in town, it will be expensive, but most colleges provide most years of accommodation, even if not on the main site.

2. The downside of the tutorial system is that it is intense and there is nowhere to hide. You are on the spot, having to explain and defend your views every week. If you haven't prepared properly it is extremely obvious and very stressful. The interviews are designed to be a bit like a mini tutorial so that can help candidates see how they would feel about having that every week (obviously without the high stakes!) The upside is the amount of individual attention you get, and the fact that each session can be tailored to what you need.

3. There is no shortage of tutors! It's possible that there is an ad hoc situation in some college (e.g. they aren't sure if they are going to continue teaching a niche subject so have paused admitting for it while they decide) but overall there is not a problem recruiting or retaining at Oxford at tutorial fellow level. The salary and benefits are extremely competitive compared with any other UK university, and the rest of UK Higher Ed is very precarious right now: Oxbridge is one of the few places you can be fairly sure your job is secure. Some tutorials are given by PhDs and postdocs, but nowadays they are trained and checked up on, and they are often excellent tutors not only because they are young and keen but also they are usually teaching their own specialist area and know what the latest developments are. And there is no shortage of PhD/postdocs wanting to do teaching because there are huge numbers of PhD/postdocs at Oxford and they really need it for their CV - if anything, the problem is PhD students complaining that they want to do more teaching than they can get, not the other way round. The competition for getting academic jobs is terrifying these days, and if you don't have extensive teaching experience (as well as excellent research credentials, outreach experience, conference organisation, etc) you'll be out at the first hurdle.

4. Even Oxford changes, so I'd take with a pinch of salt the experiences of those who studied there 30 years ago. The Oxford teaching of today isn't the same as when I was an undergraduate in the 90s. Lectures are far better aligned with exam syllabuses and tutorials. Tutorials are not just 'read out your essay' - there is much more diversity in the tasks set. There are more seminars and centrally organised classes for Humanities subjects. There are more contact hours and more extra things like study skills classes for first years. The days of 'you know where the library is, see you next week' are long gone. That isn't to say that Oxford is perfect - I'm sure there are still poor quality tutors out there. In any large organisation some people will be better at their jobs and more caring than others. Even in the best school, there are mediocre teachers, and the same is true at universities.

5. Yes the terms are intense, but most students manage to have fun, socialise, and do hobbies around that. I would say it suits people who enjoy the 'work hard play hard' lifestyle because cramming things into 8 weeks makes them a busy 8 weeks.

None of this is an argument for applying to Oxford. It isn't for everyone, and there are other courses and teaching structures that suit some people much better.

If you're living out, yes, but a good proportion of colleges have accommodation for all three years

Those rents are normally cheaper per night, but also you only pay when you're there, which may only be 8-9 weeks most term.
Dh was a scholar and got free holiday accommodation too

I've studied at a "good" red brick and both studied and taught at Oxford - it was poles apart in terms of academic rigour, the demands of the course and what I actually learned. It can be very sink or swim and I would have probably sunk as an undergraduate. Having said that if you can hack it it's an incredible place to live and study and definitely worth the effort.

Having it on my CV made a huge difference from when I was applying for jobs with just my undergraduate uni on there.

And rich colleges have lots of money available for hardship finds. I relied heavily on being able to apply for it. It partly dictated my choice of college.

Yes both of theese people live out.

“Even Oxford changes, so I'd take with a pinch of salt the experiences of those who studied there 30 years ago. The Oxford teaching of today isn't the same as when I was an undergraduate in the 90s. Lectures are far better aligned with exam syllabuses and tutorials. Tutorials are not just 'read out your essay' - there is much more diversity in the tasks set. There are more seminars and centrally organised classes for Humanities subjects. There are more contact hours and more extra things like study skills classes for first years. The days of 'you know where the library is, see you next week' are long gone”.

I am DELIGHTED to hear this, although I should say that my experience is much more recent than 30 years ago! I’m so happy that there is more support as I think that would have made a world of difference to me and others I know who struggled. Mind you, I did see a tutor on social media just a couple of years ago describe Oxford as being “thrown into a bear pit”. Hopefully that was said for effect. Would you mind saying a bit more about how tasks in tutorials have diversified and what the centralised teaching now looks like for arts and humanities? And what support there is for new starters from less traditional backgrounds in terms of study skills? I sometimes have people asking me about my experience if they have someone in their family interested in applying. I make sure never to be negative or discouraging but it would be good to know what parts of my experience have changed for the better.

Well it depends hugely on the subject, and tutors have a lot of autonomy so even within a subject there are going to be considerable variations, so please don't take this as the only answer as it's only based on my experience and those of people I know.

The essay is still core to a lot of tutorials, but they tend to be interspersed with other things too. One examples is that students are often asked to give presentations and make a set of slides to support their presentation rather than writing essays . Other tasks are going to vary depending on what the course is so it's hard to generalise (e.g. for some subjects a book review of a canonical piece of scholarship; for another it might be a task focused on source selection or close analysis rather than essay-writing.) There is also more assessed coursework than back in the day (though this may change because of AI - sadly I suspect that in all universities, there will be a return to closed book exams). I know of some more tutors who offer students the options of things like museum/gallery/archive visits or reading groups, either as a supplement to a tutorial course or in lieu of a particular tutorial week.

Centralised teaching: again depends hugely on the subject, but most Faculties will offer courses taught through central classes, either by themselves or in conjunction with tutorials. These may be a core compulsory course, but some Faculties offer specialist subjects which are class-taught (so students can then opt in, either because they like the subject or because they want a change of learning style). Centralised teaching would usually be a small class (e.g. 6-10 students) from different colleges, and the teaching style would not be essay-based but more discussion and possibly presentations, with perhaps written work due in at intervals during the course; sometimes it's team taught by a pair of tutors too.

I don't know if you've heard of Opportunity Oxford, which is a bridging course for some students from non-traditional backgrounds to help them make the transition to university study. They do a 6 week digital course over the summer before they start, and then they come 2 weeks early for an in-person session, which means they get to meet other students from similar backgrounds, as well as getting some extra support with academic skills. I think that helps a lot with the feeling of 'sink or swim' and also the perception that 'no one else will be like me'. That isn't self-referral, though - students are invited on the basis of the widening participation data that the university collects during admissions.

There's a lot more general study support organised by colleges which is open to all students regardless of whether they come from a socio-economically disadvantaged background. Some now employ a 'student mentor', who can help with the practical side of developing study skills and life skills, e.g. 'I don't know how to organise my week to meet all the deadlines' or 'I don't think my academic writing is very good', but also could be 'I'm struggling to manage my budget' - obviously this can shade into welfare support and so help people get signposted on if they need more specialist help. Quite a lot of tutors organise sessions for their incoming first years on academic study skills topics for their own subject, on things like 'how to approach a reading list', 'how to write a good essay', 'how to use digital resources in your studies'.

However, none of this is perfect. A lot depends on students being signposted to the appropriate support as well as being willing to take it, and tutors being willing to be inclusive in their teaching approach. I don't want to say that there aren't people who struggle and feel lost at Oxford - I'm sure there are. And a lot of people at Oxford struggle with imposter syndrome.

One of my dc did chemistry at oxford and was told by his tutor he should be working 16 hours a day!!

The only people that dd knew who “lived out” were poshos who could well afford a yah house with old school chums. Everyone else had college accommodation which is bargainous compared with some other places. Downside is having to move all your stuff in and out every term.

dd’s best friend went to Exeter to do the same subject. She had a termly essay. At one point dd was having to hand in two a week. There was a gulf in academic rigour so I can’t imagine what degrees consist of in some of the, er, newer places.

As pps have observed, it’s really Work Hard Play Hard. But you don’t have to play hard if you don’t want to. One afternoon dd whatsapped me to say she was on the bus by herself going to find Home Bargains to remind her of home 😁🙄

DC were scholars at Oxford and Cambridge and it took them about five weeks into the first term to find a balance between work, sport and socialising. DD (STEM) figured out how to do enough to do well academically without compromising on her sport and social life. DS found that his tennis training schedule helped to structure the academic stuff just as it had at A Level but without all the hassle of travelling to train - it’s all within a bike ride at Cambridge. Both thrived on the busyness of term time and had no regrets in going.

Thank you for such a detailed response! I really appreciate that. I’m very glad to hear that things have evolved beyond the long list of essays where you just work through them and read them out in tutorials. I did further study after Oxford and felt very behind in terms of presentations skills and coursework writing. I didn’t even know how to reference as everything was exam based in my subject.

What you say is so interesting, as I remember having discussions with friends about what we thought needed to change and it was everything you’ve mentioned, even down to the bridging course!