Help ds decide by 4 pm today - UCAS Clearing Manchester Civil Engineering v Loughborough Aeronautical Engineering

[blueshoes]

Ds has got his A level results this morning: Maths A Physics A Economics B.

Being a serial mind changer, he went into Clearing to change courses from Economics to do Engineering.

He got verbal/email offers this morning from Manchester MEng, Birmingham BEng, Nottingham MEng for Civil. He also got verbal offers from Loughborough BEng, QMUL MEng for Aerospace/Aeronautical and from Southampton BEng for Aerospace Electronic. He also got a verbal offer from Sheffield BEng for Mechatronic and Robotic.

Ds is mostly considering beteen Manchester MEng Civil v. Loughborough BEng Aeronautical.

He prefers Aero as an engineering course but the 'best' uni by name (I know that is subjective) is Manchester which is civil. He has no burning desire to be any particular type of engineer except that Aero sounds more interesting to him and apparently has higher pay though I am not sure about job prospects if he is not top tier.

He is considering accepting civil and either trying to swap to Aero/Mech after first year at Manchester (anyone with experience of Manchester Engr?) or swap down into BEng and do a masters in Mech or Aero in his final year at Manchester.

Would welcome people's perspectives on his strategy at Manchester, job prospects (engineering and broader) for the various courses, pay, ease/difficulty of course.

Ds has ADHD but medicated and well managed.

All perspectives are very welcome. Thank you all who responded on my previous threads. Your answers are still very much duly noted.

I know this isnt the point of the thread but there is a thread from a mum of a ND engineering student who had loads of difficulties at uni due to his ND so might be worth you reading before he goes.

Something to consider is the type of lifestyle he will have at each. Loughborough is very much campus based - the town is fine but small and the population size changes massively depending on whether it is term time or not. I didn’t go to the uni but know people who did and visited often. There is lots of opportunties for sports, if that’s something he might consider trying - there’s opportunities for all ability levels. The union is very well funded compared to a lot of unis which makes a difference to what they can provide

I don’t know Manchester, but suspect that students spend more time in the city then on campus?

Look closely at these courses. Many engineering courses offer a common first year, which does allow swaps with engineering disciplines after the first year. Also, MEng is considered 'better' than BEng, so I'd be leaning towards that. I cannot comment more directly on those exact courses but most of these are 'good' universities.

DD is 25 and has MEng in civil engineering from Bath, Manchester was her second choice. She loves her job, works on major projects, is on 35k with a company car. When she gets her Chartership, prospects are even greater.

I'd suspect there will always be plenty of jobs for graduates in civil. DD works in infrastructure.

DH works in a related area and they take from a wide range of universities and its more to do with how much degree content matches job so would go with one he likes the course at. Look at exact content on pages. Other practical issue will be accommodation, is it available at all those and cost, London often has issues though don't know.

I would go with one of the aerospace ones - Southampton or Loughborough.

@HelloCheekyCat ds and I have read the ADHD thread. It makes me worried for him. Medication for ADHD has been transformational for ds. Not saying it makes him into a super-organised chap but with medication he would be the same as a teenager, I think, who is making the transition to independent uni and living. He is also a pretty social guy. I will remind him that if he is falling behind on his course, he really needs to reach out for help early and often. He seems to have self-belief so we will have to let him try and fail, I guess. Then we will catch him.

@123ZYX appreciate your thoughts on Loughborough. Manchester apparently has 2 campuses so weirdly is a big city but also a campus. I could be wrong.

@turtletum thanks for the tip. Ds will check out the courses for the first year. The easiest swap, if it is allowed, is between Mech and Aero. I think Civil has some common modules with Mech/Aero in the first year but not all.

@thornbury glad to hear your dd loves her job in Civil. That is reassuring to know and must be great for you to see her launch well. Does your dd spend a lot of time on site (with a hardhat etc). Are the projects in UK or abroad? Apologies if my questions are pretty basic. Neither dh nor I are engineers or STEM.

They are both very different subjects - aeronautical will be very physics heavy. What grades did he get at A level and how much does he love each subject he took?

Manchester because it is an integrated masters which will be funded by student finance. if he wants to to a masters after Loughborough he will only get the masters loan which is currently around £12 and has to cover both fees AND maintenance.

Thanks, @MsPengiuns and noted about Southampton and Loughborough. Ds said the Southampton BEng for Aerospace Electronic is very electronic and less keen for that reason.

From ds research, which could be flawed, civil has the most job opportunities but is lower paying. Aerospace is highest paying but niche and so has fewer job opportunities.

Ds finds Aero interesting when looking at the modules but does not look like a person who has a burning desire to work with planes as such. Hence, he prefers but is not necessarily fixed on Aero, so also looking at the bigger picture.

MENg is definitely better than BEng, for those who are intending to become professional engineers. It’s not clear whether the OPs DS really does.
Many courses allow switching between M and B after the first or second year depending on the student’s results at that point. I don’t know if this would apply to the Loughborough course.

@roses2 thanks for your reply.

Ds got Maths A Physics A Economics B. He loves both Physics and Maths. He did not do F Maths but has bought the F Maths OCR textbook to revise ahead of starting in September, wherever he decides.

@ErrolTheDragon you are right that ds is not the most certain about being an engineer. He has generally gone for MEng to retain the possibility to become a chartered engineer. I understand it is easy to swap down to BEng from MEng than the reverse, so good point about swapping up in Loughborough.

The reason ds got offered some courses in BEng is because the MEng was either not in clearing or if it was, he did not make the higher grade requirement.

@Comefromaway good point about the funding gap if ds does not do an integrated masters.

Re Manchester, it’s really not a separate leafy campus like Loughborough or Birmingham.

DS is currently on the Aero course at Loughborough and yes, based on his first year results, he's been offered a move to the MEng which he will I think take.

He's loving it, but then Aero was his first choice and has been for years, he's passionate about it - He was offered mechanical engineering by Bristol and Bath, but turned them down in favour of LB. He was very pleased he did further maths though, as there's a lot of maths from the beginning.

Don't get too hung up on BEng vs MEng at this stage. If his grades are good enough during the course he will be allowed to progress to MEng. And if his grades aren't good on the MEng course, he will be moved to BEng.

Most important is the subject match.

After that, it's the living environment. Would he prefer a city like Manchester or a smaller town like Loughborough. A bigger city will have a lot more distractions.

Regarding reputation, it's actually Loughborough which has been a consistent top 10 performer in the CUG rankings while Manchester has fallen to 28th. League tables aren't everything, but I just highlight it because your DC shouldn't make this decision based on perceptions of which is 'best'. Both are reputable.

I have had sons at both Manchester and Loughborough (although neither for engineering) and I would say Loughborough all the way, particularly if your son thinks that he could benefit from some additional support. Loughborough is excellent for pastoral support whereas I don’t hear anything good about Manchester. For full disclosure, DS2 started in Manchester in 2020 so kind of a weird time but their Covid related support was abysmal for sure.

i’m not sure how accommodation works at Loughborough for students who come in through clearing but generally there is a lot of on campus accommodation available and also quite often for second years who wish to stay on campus. The town certainly isn’t anything to write Home about but there is a brilliant social scene on campus related to both the uni and to individual halls.

I worked at the University of Manchester until fairly recently. Not sure about the courses but the engineering building is out of this world. Two very different locations though (Mcr and Loughborough)!

I'm a civil engineer. Agree MEng is better prospect (for someone who actually wants to be an engineer) than BEng, but transferring is possible.

Civ eng graduates generally get employed by either consultants/ designers (Aecom, Jacobs etc) or contractors (Costain, Balfour Beatty etc). Designer's job usually more office based, research and develop solutions for bulldings, bridges, railways etc. Contractors do the actual building, may well be site based and have to work away from home at times, there will be hi vis and hard hats but very motivating, less maths but more management, early responsibility if you have an aptitude. Both options involve a lot of teamwork and great sense of achievement.
Your DS should try and get some work experience during the course.

I don't know much about aerospace - probably more niche, more maths, maybe more high tech.There isn't a wrong answer - great opportunities from any of those courses.
Someone will probably be along to say the pay is rubbish but if that's not the only motivator, engineering is a great career.

He’s probably right re employment opportunities. There will always be civil engineering projects of various types, and by their nature they’re not all jobs which can be offshored!
Aerospace opportunities otoh… more niche and perhaps commercially and politically more uncertain?

PP are correct that swapping up to MEng is routine if you’ve got the marks, so that’s fine. You do need to rearrange your losn eith Student Finance England, a slight irritant.

You also need to keep in mind that in so doing you’ve used up your excess allowance: SFE will extend the original loan for one year, for any reason. If you want to swap up and change programmes or need to repeat for reason, you need to petition for a second additional year of loan and I wouldn’t lay a bet on the outcome.

I visit Manchester and it does have two campuses, but my impression is that the Engineering students are concentrated on the one close to Manchester Piccadilly. A better location for the Citu Centre, I don’t know about housing. Busses seem good.

Aero is more niche than Civil. I think you do need a passion. It may also involve more Maths and Physics. Civil can be tangent to Environmental which inspires a lot of passion in itself, and certainly allows one to work on one of humanity’s core issues.

I think it comes down to the question of how strong is DS’ passion for Aero?

@blueshoesI have also read the post about ADHD and struggling on an engineering degree. To counter that ever so slightly my DS has ADHD and ASD and completed a MEng in Electrical and Electronics Engineering with distinction, he is now a year away from completing a PhD in an engineering subject. So, it is absolutely possible!

In terms of which course, if your DS is thinking of pursing CEng, it is a much easier and faster route with an MEng.

@PatriciaHolm glad to hear your dh is loving Aero at Loughborough. Your ds is a smart cookie to get the offers he did and doing F Maths at A level. Aero at LB sounds challenging with the high maths content.

@ErrolTheDragon thanks for the tip. Will look at Manchester as more of a City uni. Thanks also for your thoughts re: employment opportunities.

@Skule and @aloharose thanks for your perspective for choosing between LB and Manchester and MEng v BEng.

@claretmum, now curious at how Manchester's Engineering building is out of this world!

@notmenono, great to hear from a civil engineer. Particularly your perspective on the different types of jobs between consultants/designers and contractors. He would enjoy site based work. What do you think about branching into project management. Apparently civil is a good grounding for that. Any thoughts?

@poetryandwine Ds is interested in Aero but maybe not passionate. I fear his Maths and Physics, being A and A at A level without F Maths, may not be strong enough.

@aloysiuswasabear congrats to your ds. Fantastic to hear of ND success stories. Electrical is really hard IMO. Very impressed he is about to complete a PhD!

There are plenty of project management opportunities for people starting as engineers, it gives them helpful context, may need to take some additional APM qualifications at some point but it's a very common move/evolution.

Personally I think university doesn’t matter too much as all the ones he has offers from are good unis and well know. So I wouldn’t get too caught up on this. I work in a profession that’s highly sought after and competitive and honestly as long as it’s a decent enough uni it’s not that much of an advantage.
I’d thing about whether he wants beng or meng as far as I remember beng is incorporated engineer and meng is chartered??? I could be wrong though! I’m trying to remember back to when I worked in HE for a year.
If he has a preferred uni but degree isn’t what he wants I think generally all unis have engineers all together for the first year anyway so he could switch in year 2 especially if he’s shown good results etc. at least this is what my uni did. The specialist modules didn’t start until year 2.
So by that logic it seems he’s most keen on Manchester and although not guaranteed aeronautical this could be a strong possibility.
my grandfather was a lecturer in aeronautical engineering and he was very passionate about the subject. It’s a really interesting degree.