Worth requesting a remark?

[PushItToTheMax]

DD is 3 marks from an A in her best subject, which she is gutted about as she was predicted an A star and her results look well below her normal marks. She is going on to study this subject at uni, will also need postgraduate qualifications.

She is also 1 mark from an A in her 2nd favourite subject - this one was a shock the other way as she’s achieved a lot better than we expected!

She has met her grades for her firm so doesn’t technically need higher grades, but for her best subject especially she’s absolutely gutted and can’t stop crying. I think it’s really knocked her confidence about studying it at uni.

I can just about afford the remark costs but it will be tight. I’m just a bit unsure what to do for the best. We didn’t get to speak to teachers at school this morning as DD was distraught, trying desperately to hold her tears in until she got to the car. I’m trying to reassure her that BBB is actually really good, that she’s in to her firm but it’s not really sinking in.

So he doesn't have consent and can't access them.

Indeed. Gosh some of this “caring” is paradoxical. It’s OK for teachers’ families to miss out and it’s OK for teachers’ mental and physical health to be ignored, because teachers must care much more for other people’s children than their own, and other people’s health than their own. And do this for free.

Irony scale: 15/10

No I didn't, I said we should look at changing dates for exams and results however I am saying that families on UC or FSM - when teacher's agree a review of marking is warranted shouldn't have to pay as many times they cannot afford it when they should get a review. And then the opposite happens of parents who don't need a review but can pay doing it against teacher's advice. Whether the government pays or its done through a fund is a different matter - just like for students on 16-19 bursary they don't pay the UCAS admin fee either, something like that. I should have explained in more detail earlier. Apologies.

I assume he just wanted a list of people who he knew would give consent in future. I'm not sure any of the teachers can directly access the scripts at DD's college, it all has to go through presumably the exam officer along with automated payment.

No teacher anywhere can directly access scripts. JCQ regs are very clear about that.

It's undirected time, so you can choose to spend it on anything that is logically part of your role. You don't see looking at students' marked scripts as logically part of your role, but other teachers do.

You're choosing to have a paddy about it - yet nobody said you were obliged to look at students' scripts. Perhaps you think that other teachers are obliged not to do it just because you don't want to.

The burden on teachers is defo a problem in all of this. I think it is wrong that they should be expected to work without compensation

I think you are missing the point 🤦🏼‍♀️ There is not enough time to do that in 'undirected' time. Thats the bottom line. I'm sorry if that's difficult to understand.
(And I find it interesting that you view my points as 'having a paddy'. I wonder why you view them like that...).

I agree - sadly this is the main reason why so many teachers are leaving the profession - unreasonable expectations leading to impossible workload (not that some MN posters will accept that).

That's completely different to what you said, which was:

During their final lesson he got all the students to give their consent so that he could get them

Interesting that you've done a complete U-turn after hearing that this is malpractice!

(And no - the teacher may collect the consent from the pupil, eg via a form. Some schools use an electronic form instead. This goes to the exams officer. The teacher/school must not get the consent prior to results.)

I'm not missing that point at all - I acknowledged at the start that teachers are overworked and underpaid. Many other professions are too. But I don't think that means you can tell other teachers how to spend their time. If they want to spend it looking at scripts then that is up to them, not you.

For someone who claims to not have enough time to spend with your family, you spend a lot of time being pedantic and argumentative on Mumsnet. 🙄

I'm sure that her mum will manage her expectations and that she is smart enough herself to know that it may not change. Her mum will also be best placed to assess whether greater distress will be caused by never knowing if a remark may have increased her grade or getting the original marks confirmed. As a random stranger, my guess is that this young woman will be able to move on either way after she gets the remark and she will soon be too busy planning for uni to keep mulling it over. It's a moment in time, but an important one.

Eh? I've spent almost 24/7 with my family recently - where did you get the idea I haven't been spending much time with my family? 😅

I don't think of pointing out malpractice as being argumentative (it's pretty serious actually...) but each to their own 👌

Well I'm not their line manager, so no I can't... intrigued to know where you think I said I could do that? 😁

Hi as an A level teacher of a humanities subject I understand your frustrations but in reality it is unlikely the grade will change. When a paper is reviewed if the marker agrees with the band of marks the paper has been put in the score will not be altered. This means that a reviewer could give it 5 more marks but if in the same band it won't be altered. This could occur over a range of the papers and questions.. and a different examiner could have given it a much higher grade.

DS has just had his reviews of marking for 2 papers and one subject went up a grade (B to A) and the second from an A to A. He now has A, A* A and can go to his first choice Uni. We are so relieved and glad we did this. I have to say the process was incredibly stressful. It delayed the celebrations on results day etc. But at least it's an excellent outcome

Excellent news @Foodaddict1

Glad to hear that news.
Although most papers don’t go up, a sizeable chunk of around 20% of requests do result in upgrade.
Yes, if within the marking band, it’s deemed within tolerance and the mark won’t change, but in humanities it’s not that unusual to hear of essays being out by 2 bands or occasionally even more, which can result in really significant jumps in marks.

If a grade seems wrong and very different to expectation and especially if there’s a significant difference in the marks given for the 2 or 3 papers which don’t fit with how the student felt the papers went, or where the teacher thinks it looks odd, it’s worth it if a uni place depends on it and if not can still be worth it if not close to the grade boundary before which risks a downgrade. Those grades go on your CV and might make the difference between getting binned at the first selection stage for competitive summer internships and first jobs, or not. And if you deserve the marks and grade…you should have them!

Yes, that’s exactly what happened with DS. He came out of the English exam feeling confident and was pleased with his A grade. However, when his teacher reviewed the paper, she strongly recommended a re-mark, particularly for one essay. As I mentioned earlier, this resulted in his grade being raised from an A to an A*, giving him an additional 10 points.

In German, he was awarded a B despite being predicted an A, which he needed for his firm choice. As a result, he got offered a place at his insurance instead. He was devastated on results day, especially as he was only 2 points off an A, and so he submitted a priority re-mark. If he had received his firm offer, he wouldn’t have gone through with the review, as the process is quite expensive.

Yay! Well done him! Wonderful news!

The likelihood of reviews leading to mark (and grade) change outcomes vary by subject - at my school English has far more changes than any other subject. However, IME it also varies by exam board. Our A Level exam board hardly changes any, whereas for GCSE the majority of them do end up being increased. I always feel bad for the ones just one mark away from the boundary, but while we are doing a grading system like this, there has to be a cut-off somewhere...

Congratulations to DS, @Foodaddict1 !

There’s a gov review of review of marking from last year. It shows which subjects had highest levels of challenges put in and also outcomes. In some subjects a large proportion of requests for review result in an upgrade.
Across all requests, the majority are unchanged and only a tiny proportion drop a grade.
The figures show as a proportion of total entries and can look quite small in first glance. That’s because the vast majority accept their grades and don’t put in for a review. But across all subjects about 20% of requests result in upgrade. In some subjects it’s far in excess of this.
My view is that if a grade is very surprising to student and teacher, if there’s a significant discrepancy in marks between papers when the student didn’t feel they’d had a bad paper and if they are close to the boundary above, the risk is pretty low.

What strikes me too is the inequality in the system. It can cost £60 for a paper review. For many this is very off putting. Many schools don’t give much info about review of marking as understandably they can’t afford to pay for it and they have to be careful about suggesting steps which cost families money. It is also the case that large numbers take the view that you should just accept what you’re given or that the grades don’t matter if they get you to the next stage of education.
On the other hand, chunks of the population will be putting in for lots of reviews of marking. Cost won’t be a barrier. They will have access to lots of helpful advice and take the attitude that if they’ve been wrongly marked they are absolutely entitled to higher marks, or it’s always worth a punt. And whilst most won’t rise, reasonable chunks will, further boosting the grades discrepancy which already exists.

And it isn’t that those applying for reviews of marking are wrong or opportunistic. Quite simply, there are lots of errors in marking, despite all the checks and balances . Some are discovered through reviews, but think how many remain out there undetected.

In a system where markers are so poorly paid and hard to recruit and often have so many scripts it’s not surprising. But it’s also disappointing when this is the outcome for students my and teacher hard work.

That's very true especially on costs, some of my A-levels were very close to next grade and my teachers wanted me to do the reviews after they looked the papers. However the cost was too much, across 2/3 papers, it would have been hundreds, my family was struggling with rent, I was going to university soon and that money could be used for things I'd need, and so we didn't. I got good grades and met my offer, but tbh even if I hadn't and I'd gotten into my insurance and/or clearing, we likely wouldn't have done the reviewers even though I really wanted my firm because we didn't have the money for it. I'm not saying everyone who gets a review doesn't need it (far from it) but families who shouldn't go for review (on teachers advice or its more 50-50) don't have the same considerations as my family did, where it just wasn't even able to be entertained as a possibility.

Obviously I did get into my firm, but for the challenges I had during 6th form and all the work I put in, I was disappointed and felt I hadn't worked hard enough - the reviews might not have changed anything (I did 4 essay/humanity subjects) but I would have known that okay it was me. Even requesting the scripts back was an expensive unpredictable cost for us.

I think for 16-19 bursary students (which I was) and/or FSM and PPG students the government or school should pay only if the teachers agree with getting a review of marking done, after requesting the scripts. It's more fair that way and it happens for UCAS - the school pay the UCAS admin fee for 16-19 bursary students when they apply.

I agree with what @WombatChocolate says, especially about the cost being off-putting if you haven't got that £60 per paper to spare. Our comprehensive does have a fund for papers they think are worth getting a remark, and they will approach students to offer this.

It's also worth remembering in the percentage that change that, especially now you can get the papers back, that quite a number that go back are because the paper has been seen and an error identified. People also typically only look at subjects close to top borders or where there looks like an anomaly, so again, increasing the percentage that change on remark.

For example we've requested 3 subjects* back and out of those 13 papers over the subjects, put in 2 papers, both of which went up, because the teacher/student could see an error in marking. But that's out of over 50 subjects done and around 150 papers.
So we could say we'd had 100% errors in papers that go back, but that's not really the full picture.

*Ds has just requested his back, but not to check for a remark, but because he just was interested to see, so I haven't counted those.