Question about law for those doing a different degree

[Fabfabfab]

DC is planning to do a History degree with the view of then doing a law conversion. Does anyone know which Universities have good links with the law departments and offer opportunities for non law students? Top choices at present are: Durham (aspirational choice and probably unlikely as PG is AAA), Bristol, Exeter, Warwick (not visited so not sure yet) and York/Manchester

Have they considered Sheffield? They offer the post grad course so presumably your DS could start building links while doing undergrad history - by being active in one of the law societies for example.

@Fabfabfab Durham and Bristol and Warwick are great for non law grads seeking the best training after uni. Exeter too but Manchester and York are feeding more of a regional market.

DD (and her non law colleagues and friends went to mostly the first 3 I mentioned but they are London based. DD did MFL degree at Bristol. Others she knows did History at Durham and History and French at Warwick. All south based families though so wanting London work. Lots of non law friends are Oxbridge of course.

Regarding help from law departments, for DD at Bristol - not really. However it’s 10 years since she graduated so I might not be up to date. I know she went to law careers fairs, and I think joined a debating group but could not join most societies run for the benefit of LLB students. As a result, any non law student will need to be a self starter and do a lot of research themselves. Their personal tutor might be able to connect them to a suitable mentor but don’t bank on it. However the sheer determination of DD and students like her do make things happen! They get the internships, mini pupillages and scholarships with limited help. They are often very employable as a result despite not having so much in depth knowledge.

Not looked at Sheffield but good point about the link to the post grad course, definitely worth exploring

Good to hear that Bristol and Warwick seem like good choices. Do you think Exeter is equally as good with regards to this despite ranking slightly lower in the league tables? We are in the South so would probably be better to have opportunities in London/South East after graduating. I understand how most of the opportunities go to the Law students (only fair as they are actually studying law) but imagine some Universities will be better than others at providing links and opportunities to those interested in a law conversation after their first degree

I think Exeter is also good . My DD did MFLs and they weren’t as good as Bristol for those. However when converting to law, as long as you have an academic subject and get all the applications in for work, scholarships and courses you are in with a shout. The rest is down to personality and soft skills.

I would 100% prioritise choosing the best uni for her undergraduate degree. This will count for much more than whether the law dept offers opportunities to non-law students. As a non-law student she will be able to apply for vac schemes etc on her own. It's likely that there will also be law lectures etc that she can attend (big set piece events on broad subjects rather than just sitting in on a lecture on trusts or whatever) but that shouldn't drive her choice of university.

No need to worry about whether the university also offers the conversion course- she should choose where to do that separately (and potentially firms/chambers may have a view on where they would prefer her to go if they are sponsoring her). It is not hard to get a place on a conversion course. The hard bit is getting someone to pay your fees and give you a job.

(All the unis mentioned on this thread are fine, but I would put Sheffield and Exeter a bit below the rest.)

@GoldenBoldor Thank you, I agree it shouldn't be the reason to pick a particular University but just thinking through all the options as DC finding it hard to choose. So if one of the Unis have more advantages to prepare for the law conversation then she may go for that over the other options. Out of interest, why do you think Exeter is a bit below the others? I've heard so many conflicting things about Exeter. It's a little bit lower in the league tables but lots of people seem to think that it's a great choice

@Fabfabfab They won’t help at all with prep for GDL! You need to get on with internships and mini pupillages depending on interests whilst at university.

The GDL is where lawyers start networking. This is why the London based ones, if you want to work in London, are the best bet. Or go to one in the city where you want to work.

As pp says, lawyers need a job and one that will pay for SQE training is preferable. Scholarships for barrister course. Anyone not taking a LLB needs to work out what to do and be bright enough to do well at the GDL or getting a job won’t be easy. Being a self starter is vital. You will not get prepped for GDL anywhere.

Most of the big law firms tend to visit universities, so she could just attend one of their talks and then apply for Vac Schemes.

The best law universities (LNAT) will have law careers fairs where the career entry is explained and students can talk to recruiters. My advice for non law is go to a LNAT law university. It’s easy to check which ones these are.

Didn’t mean they would necessarily help directly with preparation for the law conversion but more that they might provide good links and connections with local law firms as well as opportunities to attend some lectures and join a really good University law society which should hopefully have good information and resources and enable her to make some helpful connections

Don’t think dd could join the uni law society as not studying law. Not sure if she went to talks - possibly, but as her uni had a large vibrant law school, I’m not sure how many had spaces. I’m not sure much of this helps you pass the GDL.

She used her holidays and found her own connections and work experience. You really do have to sort yourself out when not doing law. However you can because there’s good guidance from just about everyone connected to this career from regulators to those providing training and apps like Legal Cheek. DCs have 3-4 years to do what’s needed and the solicitor route is easier to navigate than barrister route - neither guarantee jobs though.

The main thing DD worked out was what area of law she wanted and targeted mini pupillages in suitable chambers. Whilst doing GDL she volunteered in a CAB. That’s when dc need to start building a cv if they want to be a barrister. Getting relevant experience at university can be difficult and it won’t be signposted to non law grads.

I went to a university that didn’t even offer a law degree… I’m a qualified E&W lawyer that graduated from a Scottish university. Didn’t use the university careers service either.

Law link departments really aren’t necessary.

It’s not hard to get on the GDL - they want money. I had no issue picking up vac schemes and TCs before I started my GDL (the Sept after I graduated).

As a PP said, you’ve got to be a self-starter. Why isn’t your DC doing this legwork? That said, this really isn’t something to stress about ag this stage. Your kid would be better off getting a First as their biggest stepping stone to a job right now.

We are not stressing about it at all. We have no lawyers in the family so starting from scratch trying to understand how it works and DC is also busy trying to figure it out as well as preparing for a-levels and working over the summer

@FabfabfabWe have no lawyers in our family either. The advice regarding getting a first or high 2:1 is sound. The main thing to do is choose an elite university if that’s possible. Choose an academic course. GDL isn’t competitive but dc need a high score in it. Then they don’t use most of it again!

The other important issue is deciding barrister or solicitor. What dc do in the holidays matters. With the vast increase in applicants for vac schemes, few walk into them these days. They are as hard as getting the job and have numerous rounds and hoops yo go through. Thousands applying.

Smaller solicitors can be a route though. Also getting the cv suitable for the job - the big firms tell you what they want. Barristers - it’s fairly clear - choose area of law, do everything you can to be knowledgable about it and have confidence. Barristers and solicitors need to be self assured and give clients confidence. Degrees and GDL do not confer this on dc.

Thank you - very useful. DC has had a little bit of working experience at a law firm (a couple of days) and observed a day in court so has started the process although decided to do a different degree (History) in the first instance.

I recommend considering London, does he want to be a barrister or solicitor? Or not sure yet - anyways the Inns of Court (there are 4) are what barriers join, but you can join as a uni student from Y1. They do networks, lectures, have study libation etc - it would just make it easier to go to events and do such networking espeicallly as barristers are self-employed and it's good to get in front of then when looking for internships, mini pulliages and tips and tricks (some don't do any, but if you ask someone they'll let you work with them, that sort of thing). UCL, LSE all do very good history degrees. If you don't live that far away, she could commute with trains (obviously dependant on income of you and student finance etc).

Also in general for history - would she look at a combo, History and Politics etc? I recommend Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool as they have really good opportunity and history degrees.

History is ace at Durham and Bristol. You want places with good law careers fairs. Where do firms think employees or barristers will be educated?

You normally join one Inn of Court. The one you think will give you a scholarship and support you through to being a barrister. Barristers can be employed - CPS.

Yes I know you join one. I should have said, just saying the main events for all of them are in London, some elsewhere but less. And yes some barristers are employed (mainly for the government) but not many especially in comparison to solicitors who work for firms primarily. Whereas barristers even in chambers all do their own work at the end of the day. Unfortunately many scholarships are dropping the funding and are more competitive these day, but are still a great way for people to pay for the higher costs of becoming a barrister over a solicitor (just because if you get a TC in uni they often pay SQE fees - not always but more I've seen are).

She's not keen on London as (aside from the cost!) she wants the full University experience and London students tend to live all over London, and many at home. What do students do outside of London, is there an equivalent to the 4 Inns in other places like Bristol/Durham/Warwick/York? She's not sure about solicitor versus barrister yet.

Yes that's fair enough to have the full univeristy experience and there are many great unis outside of London as well. The 4 Inns of Court isn't to do with uni at all - it's for barristers, to be a barrister you have to join one, and cannot join more than one either (normally before your bar course - postgraduate course for barristers, after law degree/conversion course). However you can join from 1st year uni, which can be great as you can go to the events they have, meet junior and senior barristers, go to the lectures and workshops for skill development and they often have bursaries and scholarships to apply for as well as you go through the process of becoming a barrister. The bases for all 4 Inns of Court are in London and most of the events will be there too (so it's an added benefit if she wanted to go to a London uni). It's not that there won't be some virtual events and ones outside of London that the Inn will run, just much less.

@TheLivelyViperNot sure the scholarship values are dropping but the training courses are cheaper now - just vast numbers of wannabes doing them so they still get the money in. The main thing is for dc to get a named major scholarship and understand how they are awarded. Certainly DDs Inn hands out £1.5 million each year. Two others probably have bigger funds.

@Fabfabfab I don’t think you need a degree from a London university at all. However I would do the Barrister course in London. The Inns do have some presence in other areas where events are held but the great networking opportunities are in London. However for people who don’t want to work in London, courses are available elsewhere.

There is no equivalent to an Inn of Court. They are in London and that’s it. They are the only training organisations for barristers after they get pupillage. Have a look at their web sites. They are Inner Temple, Middle Temple, Lincoln’s Inn and Grays Inn.

I would say dc really do have to want this career. In London it’s dominated by Oxbridge and upper end RG university graduates and it’s vital to find the area of law that interests you. The competition is fierce. Elsewhere the regional RG universities supply the local barristers. It’s worth reading up on all of this as early as possible if dc becomes interested.

Yes agree with this - btw I wasn't saying this is the only reason to go to a London university just a benefit and a note to consider London because other than cost they do have excellent unis (LSE, UCL etc) and great history degrees. However if OP's DD wants to move out and wouldn't for London then that's also fine. There's amazing history courses in Sheffield, Liverpool, Manchester, Bristol etc.

The main legal centres if want to work at large firms are London, Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Bristol. Then probably Sheffield, Newcastle, Nottingham, Liverpool. A lot of people will do postgrad courses at University of law or BPP rather than at uni - there’s a huge choice. Should pick the best uni for their undergrad course but out of that list Manchester and Bristol would be the biggest centres for legal jobs at the sort of firms that might sponsor you.