Has anyone got experience of drama school applications? Particularly musical theatre?

[RenegadeKeeblerElf]

DD is desperate to pursue musical theatre as a career. She's tried looking at other careers but every time we go to an open day she comes away miserable because it just isn't what she wants to do. I've agreed to support her with this as I feel she needs to feel like she's done everything she can to make it a success but I'm worried she isn't at a high enough level.

She does a musical theatre class weekly outside of college and has done a few other shows, but no formal training (and no performance based A levels). She's not a powerful singer (but can carry a tune and has started singing lessons), she's a good dancer but as I say, no formal training. She's also quite an introvert and although she comes out of her shell on stage, this wouldn't necessarily come across in an interview/audition. We are looking at foundation courses rather than straight into a degree but I just don't know how high the standard will be and worry that she's missed the boat by not starting training younger. Does anyone have any experience to share?

I would say if she's not a powerful singer, then she is totally wasting her time pursuing Musical Theatre. Why not just go to a normal Drama School and improve her singing while there with their singing coach?

She doesn't necessarily need A levels in performance unless she's applying for a degree course somewhere traditionally academic. She needs audition practice.

If you google "accredited drama schools in the uk" you'll come up with an extensive list that you can work through to find out their leanings and criteria (and cost).

I think the problem is that there will be many other children who are desperate to be in musical theatre but are doing a lot more training in all three disciplines to try and achieve that. Including audition practice. And you will have some children with professional credits. I don’t think the a levels matter so much. As I understand it, it’s all on the audition. However, you can never quite predict what they will be looking for so I think she just needs to try and see how she gets on. And have a good back up plan!

My DD is younger though so I don’t have any direct experience. Pretty sure there is a thread on here with some very experienced MT parents which is very helpful.

I think she'd be very unlikely to get a place even on a foundation degree unfortunately. I'm a dance teacher and have sent quite a few students to vocational schools but the competition is fierce. If she was a really strong singer but inexperienced dancer (or amazing dancer and just reasonable voice) then she might stand a chance at a foundation degree. One of my ex-students has just completed the foundation degree at a vocational college and has now got a place on the full degree. She was a decent singer but outstanding dancer working at Advanced 1 level in ballet and jazz when she auditioned, to give you an idea of the competition.

Having said all that, if it's something she really adores, could she take a couple of years out and prepare intensively? Drama degrees (as opposed to MT or dance) often prefer students to be a little older with more life experience. If she worked for a couple of years she could do weekly private singing and drama lessons plus lots of dance classes. Obviously there would still be no guarantee she'd get in somewhere but it might be worth a shot. Some of the colleges may do open days or summer schools as well where she might get a realistic idea of the level they're expecting.

DS2 completed a musical theatre and professional dance degree at Bird College last year. It was extremely competitive and he has been doing MT and went to a specialist college from year 10. On reflection, whilst he has had a wonderful few years, it’s now the real world and he’s finding the process of trying to get MT work quite demoralising. I would really try and get her to consider something else, the audition process for work is really brutal

I have a family member who did musical theatre at the Royal Academy of Music and another who did acting at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. Both institutions considered some of the best in the world. It was hugely competitive to get in and despite exceptional training both have full time jobs while they pursue this. It does not get you jobs. I would be more than happy to answer any questions about the process of auditioning.

For musical theatre unfortunately it does sound like she may not be at the standard needed. Everyone in the course has the most extraordinary voices and again 1 of them is now full time and semi famous working, several have had small roles/ choruses and are earning from it though they have other things such as coaching to supplement income and most still require full time jobs. The real world of performance is incredibly hard and even those with brilliant talent struggle to break through without connections.

I was once told about theatre, if there is anything else you could possibly do and be happy, do that instead. There are lots of great universities with strong drama societies so she can get involved, maybe do a show at the fringe and join the am dram society in the place she goes as some societies are of a near professional standard and there are awards etc. york is great for all this.

Most entry is by audition. She needs to enrol for some lessons in singing and dancing at very least as competition can be fierce even at foundation. How committed is she really if she hasn’t already joined groups and gained experience and technique ? Seasonal work at theme parks and attractions would develop her confidence, although she might have missed the boat for this year. Volunteer at a local theatre and with kids or amateur groups. She could go to uni for another subject(ideally one without a dedicated department), join their drama and mt societies then go on to drama school if she still has a passion for it. There are plenty of more mature students at drama schools,if perhaps less so dance based.

Must it absolutely be performance - or might she consider any of the hundred other skills that go into putting on a show? Does she write, design, organise - etc? All of those things can entail undergraduate and postgraduate degrees, often at conservatoires, and keep you engaged in exactly the same world as the performers.

It doesn’t sound as if she’s at the required level, OP, if her singing isn’t great and she has no formal dance training. I’d also question her genuine commitment and drive, if she’s done nothing to work towards this ambition other than a weekly MT class and a few shows by this stage. She will be up against people who are outstanding singers and/or dancers, and who have got that way by taking classes for years, and looking for every possible opportunity to get onstage .

I think @AFrolicOfMyOwn ’s suggestion is a good one.

Hi @RenegadeKeeblerElf I agree with others, this may be over-ambitious.

My DD was and is a big MT fan; she has a lovely voice and took singing lessons for a while; she did dance class weekly for all her school life and was an OK dancer. She was in MT shows or similar at school and with at least three external groups in our area (not all at once) She was nowhere near the standard of someone who would want to pursue this as a career.

A good number of her peers at her dance school took 3-4 classes a week, did frequent festival comps and short-term pro roles (eg dancing in the local professional panto); in MT shows, DD was not chosen for the lead role, usually being in the chorus or having a smaller solo role.

I’m using those examples to show that, although she worked on dancing and singing for much of her school life, she was not even the best in her class or her show. She was fine with this btw!

But it sounds as tho your DD may have less experience and training than my DD. I really don’t think a career in musical theatre as a performer is going to happen for her.

I also think that while it is always great to encourage our YP to aim high and to try to do their best and to have dreams and passions, these need to be realistic. I work with a lot of YP in a sport I love (athletics) and the vast majority of them are not going to get to the top of the tree – or even make a living doing it. They can train and get better; they can enjoy the sport by competing and continuing to compete into middle age and beyond; but they will never be Usain Bolt, Dina Asher-Smith or even a full-time athlete who’s a lot less famous. And that’s fine.

I am really sorry if this post sounds harsh and unsupportive; really not what I want. But your DD is (I assume) 17 and ideally she should have a realistic aim. There’s nothing at all wrong with continuing her classes, continuing her interest, watching shows, appearing in amateur shows (as a PP says there are amazing opps at uni). I think we do out YP no favours if we say they can do anything they want. They can work and improve and enjoy; but do anything they want? Become a world-class footballer or athlete or singer? Most likely not.

Thanks all, you're echoing what I think. It's so hard as I don't want to have to tell her flat out she isn't good enough but I also want to manage her expectations.

Has she ever put on, or been centrally involved in the creation and production of any theatre / musical / opera? Doing it yourself really tests one’s mettle, gives you experience of all the different crafts that have to work together, (including raising the funds to produce it) and thus give an aspiring performer a more rounded view. And it’s at that point that countless, countless writers, directors, producers, etc discover their true calling.

Of course her performance talents may be more impressive than you’ve described - but even so she’d need to be demonstrating a really muscular and singleminded drive to wipe out the competition.

That was one of the options we looked at, she seemed interested until we went to an open day and the reality of being backstage rather than performing hit.

Op if she wants to perform she absolutely can. At uni and afterwards. If that’s what she really loves, it’s open to her. She’s just going to need to earn money doing something else, I would suspect.

If she auditions, how much effort and money from you and her would be needed? At what cost to other things (eg her A levels)? And if she is flat out rejected, would she and you still consider it to have been worthwhile? That’s what you need to look at.

prior training isn’t necessarily a barrier, but they then do need to be extremely naturally gifted in either singing or dancing to get onto a musical theatre course (in my opinion/experience)

I didn’t do any performance a-levels/gcses and had only done a Saturday morning stagecoach session for a few years (age 14+) before applying and getting into a top drama school. I always wanted to do training earlier but my family just couldn’t afford dance/singing lessons before I was 14.
I’m also very shy and introverted but it doesn’t come across on stage or auditions. However my one saving grace was a naturally very strong/high level voice, which meant they were willing to over look my lack of experience/dance training etc, and a confident audition.

I think if she wants to do musical theatre but her voice isn’t a stand out she will struggle to get a place on a musical theatre course, but perhaps a straight acting course may be an option. Not any easier to get on to, but they do look at potential and they also do cover some elements of musical theatre on most straight acting courses.

My dd trained in musical theatre and dh teaches at a leading drama school.

It is possible to not be the best singer in the world but you need to be a highly trained dancer and vice versa.

It is possible not to have formal training but you need to be a naturally talented singer.
If she applies strategically she will be accepted somewhere but whether that somewhere is worth going to is questionable.

Do you think that with training her voice could become strong? I would get her some private singing lessons with a teacher who understands musical theatre. I have known students like your daughter succeed but they have usually started more serious training at age 16 or done a btec at a good local college (standards vary greatly).

There are drama schools to target if you are more of a dancer and ones to target if you are ore of a singer.

How long has she been desperate to pursue it for? I’m guessing it’s a fairly recent development. If so then I’d chat to her more about why and what she expects from it as a career. There’s some popular musical theatre influencers at the moment and their lives are very different to the reality of most people working in MT.

Does she know how competitive it is to book shows, and even if she does book them that she’d most likely have to work alongside it? And what sort of job that would have to be aka retail/hospitality?

I would be completely honest with her and look into the realities of it together. Then look into alternative career paths, and look at unis with performing arts societies and local am dram groups.

She can still perform and have a job she enjoys, best of both worlds.

She does a musical theatre class weekly outside of college and has done a few other shows, but no formal training (and no performance based A levels). She's not a powerful singer (but can carry a tune and has started singing lessons), she's a good dancer but as I say, no formal training. She's also quite an introvert and although she comes out of her shell on stage, this wouldn't necessarily come across in an interview/audition.

Frankly, I don't think she has much of a chance. But don't tell her that. Let her find out where she stands in a competitive market. Help her prepare for an audition for a Foundation course at a place that you think would be nurturing and good for her (not all of them are) - and affordable (most are private colleges who will CHARGE) - and see how she goes. Talk to her realistically about the hard work she needs to put in. She should start dance classes as soon as - there are loads of summer schools about where she could pick up some skills in musical theatre dance.

You should point out that there will be 18 year olds who have spent that last 10 years in the dance studio, who have singing lessons, and who've been involved in youth theatre during their teens.

Let her see and experience the competition for herself. In my experience of training dancers (in a previous career), young people soon work out where they sit in the hierarchy of talent & training. BUt your DD needs to work this out for herself. It'll be tough, but that's what sje's signing up for.

But all the successful performers I know were absolutely driven in their teens - they were doing ballet & jazz classes 5 days a week after school, singing & dancing all Saturdays, learning acro dance, street dance, Bollywood dance and so on whenever they could.

Most people not in the theatre don't realise how extraordinarily talented (& lucky) you have to be, just to get a chorus role ...

Having said all that, if it's something she really adores, could she take a couple of years out and prepare intensively? Drama degrees (as opposed to MT or dance) often prefer students to be a little older with more life experience. If she worked for a couple of years she could do weekly private singing and drama lessons plus lots of dance classes.

Excellent suggestions from @ListsWonderfulLists - if you're anywhere near London, there are fabulous studios for theatre dance & ballet (and ballet really is the basis of so much else). She could put together a training regime of 2 classes a day plus a weekly singing lesson, (but she'd have to work to pay for it ... ) I think Pineapple even does singing as well as dance classes.

How absolutely driven is she about what she wants to do?

There are lots of great universities with strong drama societies so she can get involved, maybe do a show at the fringe and join the am dram society in the place she goes as some societies are of a near professional standard and there are awards etc. york is great for all this.

As are:
Birmingham
Manchester
Exeter
Oxford
Cambridge
Edinburgh

At some of those universities, you can study Drama, and do student-run extra curricular drama alongside.

I'd say she is hyper focused rather than driven - she is blinkered and can't see another option but she also doesn't necessarily have the drive to push herself outside her comfort zone (likely ADHD but not diagnosed). I understand what people are saying about the lack of classes but that's as much about my finances as her drive - I simply haven't been in a position to pay for the hours and hours of training each week that she would have needed. I think the advice to let her see it for herself is best - there is a performing arts sixth form near us which has a 'gap year' course which I think would be a good fit, and also free as it comes under FE funding rather than HE. My hope is that she gets a place there and gets some intensive training for a year and then gets a better idea of where she is at.

she also doesn't necessarily have the drive to push herself outside her comfort zone

I don't think she'll succeed, frankly. But your idea to get her onto the FE college course is a good one. Let her see the real work that's needed.

But a definition of performing might be to "push yourself out of your comfort zone."

If she really wanted classes, she would have got a part-time/Saturday job to fund them. Local studios don't charge a lot.

To be fair, she is funding the singing lessons from her job and they are definitely not cheap.

Comfort zone probably wasn't the right phrase. Its more like she recognises that for her own mental health and wellbeing she needs to avoid over scheduling herself. Currently after college she does (1 each day) extra tuition for one of her A levels, violin, musical theatre, singing, and work, plus work on Saturdays. There isn't much time/money for more extra curriculars. We do have a plan to try and do some at college from Sept (didn't fit with her timetable this year) and she is taking whatever opportunities for extra training we can find over the summer. I think I'll try to encourage her to hold off from UCAS applications this year and get some extra training after A levels

Is there a local amdram musical theatre group she could audition for? She'll get a really good sense of the work needed. And frankly, your mention of her protection of her mental health doesn't augur well - the timetable you set out isn't particularly heavy - but then I did advanced dance classes for 3 hours after school 4 to 5 times a week, plus youth theatre all day Saturday, and pony club Sunday ...