UCAS clearing - swap Economics with Engineering - any tips?

[blueshoes]

Ds' UCAS application is a bit of a hot mess.

He got an offer of AAA/A*AB from Nottingham Uni for Economics. He has changed his mind and wants to do Engineering

His subjects at A level are Economics, Physics and Maths with predicted grades of AAB in that order. He thinks he can get AAA or AAA for his results and is hoping to trade up to a higher tariff university to do Engineering😬

He has to go into clearing 😭

The universities he has in mind are Bristol, Bath, UCL, Warwick, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds.

He does not want Oxbridge (erm, not that he has a choice). Has he got a chance at Imperial at all, considering he does not have Further Maths? I guess Imperial won't come up in clearing so he will have to do a gap year and try with grades in hand. Is that even worth bothering or too pie in the sky?

Hoping for tips and experiences. TIA

@clary that is reassuring about Durham.

I know one of my housemates & his mate who I ended up seeing for a while did mech engineering (this was about 15 years ago!) they did the longer course with the one year in industry. Both went to work back at their placement at rolls Royce, I believe both worked on the submarines for defence all a bit hush hush and both now work in Berlin still for rolls. A lot of the guys on their course who did the year in industry all started their careers at rolls in derby either in subs or aerospace. All studied at Sheffield Hallam but I think they are likely to have dropped down the rankings now. However my point is maybe worth checking out the year in industry courses and who they have good relationships with in terms of employers. As a lot of them went straight into a job and have worked their way up into senior management positions etc

These are the historical grades for the Durham MEng my DC has firmed for September, they seem to be higher than the entry requirements but might drop for clearing?

Yes! Just because the advertised grades are lower than you might expect, it’s not what is really required to secure a place.

Is it you or your DS looking at working in the defence industry? What kind of field does your DS want to work in as an engineer? Or is he looking at engineering as a degree as a stepping stone into finance?

Defence is most commonly looking for electrical, mechanical, systems and aeronautical engineers, with the big employers being contractors.

DS has a contextual offer of AAB due to our postcode, he's also done some Ogden Trust & STEM Ambassador stuff at Durham which may have helped. He's really excited to go back as a "proper student" and has his eye on joining the solar car race team 😁

Have you thought about trying north of the border? Strathclyde has an excellent engineering facility and from memory ranked in the top 10 in the UK. I know ex students who have gone onto a multitude of roles like finance, law etc. I can also confirm you need an MEng (or separate MSc) to become a chartered engineer. There are other routes (like being incorporated) but to generally to climb pay grades in engineering companies (in a technical role) you need to be chartered. Unfortunately some companies prioritise this above years of experience. Just something to bear in mind.

That’s wonderful, hope he loves it (I ended up staying and working in the Durham area for several years).

My youngest applied with grades in hand and also qualified for a contextual offer that he exceeded (not engineering but another competitive area) and didn’t get an offer, so I think your DS must have really stood out.

Mine did the Greenpower (as it is now) car challenge at primary school and loved it - they got to race against other teams at a motor museum racetrack.

@MillicentFaucet well done to your ds for his offer from Durham. Sounds like he has a passion for physics and engineering and it came across.

I take what I said back about the 'low' entry requirement for Durham. I got confused because so many of their engineering courses were in clearing and the advertised admission grade is A* AA. I see now the most common grade is 3 Astars. That said, quite a high percentage (84%) get offers.

Hoping ds gets a chance at clearing at Durham.

My thinking is quite muddled. Defence industry is me, not ds particularly. In terms of jobs, I was thinking of a growing industry within Engineering (Plan B) that ds could go into if his Plan A of Finance fails.

Ds at this stage wants to do Engineering at uni (because he thinks studying it will be more interesting than Econs) as a stepping stone to a Finance career. However, so many finance jobs are being cut back, hence he might have to fall back on Engineering jobs.

Thanks for the intel on the most common types of engineering degrees which pertain to defence.

@blueshoes That’s defence spending and purchasing from manufacturers. Be careful about where the systems you describe are made? Are they all uk based manufacturers or is a lot bought from USA? I’m sure there will be jobs but if he really wants engineering, go for MEng and do the research about which companies to target.

Agree with @TizerorFizz about MEng if your DS is serious about engineering as a career or as a backstop.

Plus, it’s much cheaper to do as an integrated undergrad degree than a later standalone post grad masters degree.

Can I ask about a slightly diverted question than the OPs as there seem to be knowledgeable people on here ?
DS is really hoping for Sheffield for aerospace engineering. Grades have increased this year due to the popularity of the course and the uni. If he didn’t get those grades, if civil engineering is in clearing, what’s the chances of them allowing him to start that and then transfer to aerospace?

@blueshoes

He might be interested in this, OP.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/joining-options/funding-and-scholarships/defence-stem-undergraduate-scheme

@NCTDN I don’t know the answer to that but at the moment Southampton Aerospace engineering is in clearing. They are ranked 2, higher than Sheffield. Why not apply there? Same A levels but maybe more likely to be flexible on a grade?

Personally I cannot see much crossover between civils and aeronautical in terms of 1st year core teaching. I would say it’s risky thinking you can game the system when a course is full. Others might know more.

Civil Engineering can be less competitive to get a really good place than say Mechanical Engineering. There are usually plenty of very good unis available in clearing. Southampton being one.

As others have said, it's a broad degree so
lots of career options. Yes an MEng is better if you want to become a chartered engineer. Though my ds decided to go into project management so he needs to either do a different masters or take the longer route.

When your DS is speaking to the unis please ask them how they rate students taking a year out, previously the advice was to not take time out as your maths skills grow rusty.
And as a mum with sons who studied Aerospace (Southampton), and Mechanical (Warwick), you have to love maths, really love it.
FM is a huge help and I would recommend your DS gets some FM text books now and starts going through them ahead of September assuming he gets a place through clearing.
BTW, both DS now work in the defence sector, and the pay is pretty good!

@Decorhate When DH started as a graduate engineer there was no separation between project management and designing. The engineers who designed the project then went out on site to supervise the construction because they knew the project best and could make alterations if necessary. Splitting project management away from engineering design always seems wierd to DH. Times have changed though.

Warwick gave my DD an offer for MEng of AAA. I presume a BEng would be even lower. The virtue of Warwick is that it’s data science, business and economics departments are well known feeders into London finance, if that is his strongest interest. (DD really wants engineering, so chose a higher offer at Sheffield.)

@TreesOfGreen99 thanks for the practical advice. Ds will ask the maths gap year question to the admissions teams when he calls them. He is also going to get the FM text books. He says he loves maths now (post-medication)

Well done to your DSs for securing work in the defence sector. It seems so tough nowadays for new grads to get jobs. Your sons are doing really well. Can I ask what the pay is like in defence, just in terms of ranges. It would help to inform ds by comparing against finance. Totally understand if you prefer not to answer.

Just want to say thank you to all replies. They are incredibly helpful and informing and refining ds' thinking. We are taking lots of notes and putting things in action.

But if everyone getting accepted has 3 x A star an 84% acceptance rate does not mean it is easy to get in. It means those who apply are of a high calibre

@blueshoes engineering is never going to pay what a top finance job in the city will pay.
For an idea on starting salaries, take a look at the grad schemes of some of the big defence companies in the south west (Bristol is a hub for defence) eg, BAE, MBDA, Qinetiq.
Both DSs are now 5-10 years post grad, and their salaries have doubled plus from when they started.
Engineers are also targeted by the management consultancies as they have so many transferable skills, the pay is probably higher.

However, my DS love engineering, they work with cutting edge technologies. Design, build and fit innovative kit that is designed to keep our military safe. DS1 regularly travels to other sites across Europe. DS2 spends part of each month working directly with the military across the UK and at overseas bases.
The work they do is classified and important. Of course they could just as easily work at Dyson and design the next hair dryer! That’s the breadth of engineering 😂

An observation wrt the 'most common' grades of those actually studying Engineering at Durham. If posts on MN are anything to go by, nearly everyone which applies to either Oxford or Cambridge automatically also applies to Durham and almost certainly has Durham as their automatic Firm (assuming an offer), should an offer from O / C not be forthcoming. They almost certainly have the highest grade predictions (otherwise they wouldn't be applying to O / C) and may well fulfil those. Therefore, although the departmental may be confident that 3A* is not a necessary requirement for it to teach the cohort the content of its degree courses - hence the lower entry requirements, even allowing for an element of raising the bar as a pure filter on the number of applications they have to deal with - in practice, a lot of those whi actually 1. apply and 2. meet their offer, will have 'outmet' it.
?

@TreesOfGreen99 Hm. It can get close but dc have to be entrepreneurial. Not satisfied with being a cog in a wheel. Someone has to be CEO!