Are there any advanced to sticking with 4 A levels?

[movedilemma]

Title meant to say- are there any advantages, but can't work out how to change it.
DT's in year 12, just got their predicted grades for UCAS. Both are doing 4 A levels and have been predicted A stars across the board. A range of subjects. Neither are doing Further maths. They enjoy all 4 subjects and are interested in them. Neither have an obvious weaker subject. They can't decide to drop one (they are worried about dipping a grade if they stick with 4) or stick with all 4. Everything seems to say there are no advantages to sticking with 4. But just wondering if anyone has examples of when it has been a benefit or where it might help with onward steps? I was thinking it give some flex potentially if they don't do well in one exam to still meet their offer grades. But still feels like a lot of work for potentially little gain. Any thoughts welcomed.

The only one worth as a fourth for uni is Further Maths. Dd did four and probably compromised her results.

I did four proper A-Levels, plus general studies. At the time, I wanted to keep it broad (did chemistry, biology, maths and English literature - and would have dropped English, if any). It was totally fine, and I was able to have lots of fun and work two or three shifts a week alongside it. But I also can’t think it’s ever been especially beneficial either!

Until quite recently I would have said a definitive ‘No’. However it turns out that some Cambridge Colleges, and perhaps a very few other places, do expect four A levels if the applicant is at a school where this is the norm.

Three is acceptable in this situation with good reason, and these Cambridge Colleges emphasise that only three are expected from other applicants.

Admissions tutors are generally happy to help, so if your family has questions the best thing would be for the DT(s) to email any relevant admissions teams. Best wishes to them

It does remain the case that overall a certain swathe of good English schools are invested in encouraging four A levels to no real purpose. Three A stars remain more impressive than two A stars and two A’s: we want to see what applicants can do at their best.

The main advantage is keeping degree choices open. My DS2 did 4; because he liked all 4 subjects.
Most unis want 3. If they are hitting A stars in all 4 and can keep that up next year there is no harm in keeping 4. Esp if they are undecided on a degree subject.

They could do it for the love of the subject.

The bottom line is that they will be experiencing 33% more academic workload than most other students. So they need to make a judgement on whether that time is best spent on the 4th subject or on other activities, which might or might not be important for their personal development eg paid or voluntary work, learning to drive, pursuit of non-academic interests etc

Some other things to bear in mind: those taking Further Maths benefit from considerable overlap/conjunction with Maths. There are Arts and Humanities subjects with degrees of conjunction but not to the same extent.

Studies show that schools and colleges, on average, overpredict A level grades. How would your DC feel if the outcome was AstarAAB vs, say, AstarAstarA? Astar is a narrow band in many subjects, A less so. You say the 4th might allow a cushion for underperformance in one subject but that most likely applies if you are worried about them dropping an Astar. If this is the territory you are in, then it might be better to focus on three A levels.

Your DC sound like they are very bright and enjoy academic learning and their chosen subjects. It is really a case of being aware of the risks of grade dilution and crowding out of other activities. One of mine did four, inc FM, who did experience some grade dilution but they were happy with the outcome because they wanted to study all four and had weighed up the risks; there was no wishful or unrealistic thinking.

Are you prepared to say which colleges these are?
There was an official Cambridge admissions webinar earlier this week and they were specifically asked this question and said that 3 was absolutely fine; no mention of exceptions at certain colleges.

MY DD is doing 4 as one of her applications for uni is for Trinity Dublin which needs more than the points that can be gained with 3 x A*. One is maths as that is essential for Trinity.

She is also applying to Uni in the US and 4 is useful for a breadth of subjects.

Only advantage is keeping subject options open for uni
if a subject has no chance of being studied at uni, I’d encourage a drop
but some kinds really do sail through 4+ with little difficulty

Yep. I work in a high league table private school and I do have a few 5 A* each year. It boggles my mind!

I did it for the love of the subject. That’s why I took 4 in the first place. And my “taken because I love it” 4th a level (eng lit alongside my science / maths ones) not only kept me sane, but turned out to be incredibly useful a couple of years later as I ended up in a more essay based science degree, and I could immediately convert all I had learnt about eng essay writing to discussions on magma chambers and academic paper comparisons.

I have honestly forgotten. However I know it was in the context of a STEM subject all but requiring FM. The rationale did not mention FM, only school norms. I actually got on to one of these College sites from a MumsNet HE thread. A PP had excerpted the policy; it took me by surprise. It was within the past, at a guess within three weeks.

I used the plural only because it seems unlikely that there would be only one such College.

It is possible that because the context was a STEM subject (I do not remember which one) there was an implicit consideration of how FM counts in the background.

PS The site emphasised very strongly that if three A levels is the norm at your school then that is all the College expects of you. And even if four is the norm you can present a satisfactory reason for only doing three. But it should be substantive, whatever the realm.

I did 5 including general studies and further maths, plus an extra AS. I enjoyed doing it and it was good preparation for the workload at Oxford. I might not actually have got such good grades with 3 because I wouldn't have had to be as disciplined and might have coasted like at GCSE. That's very personal though

Just thinking about this some more (& maybe over-thinking) but this implies that schools are doing students a disservice pushing them to do 4 A levels because if they are a “3 A level school” then Cambridge won’t disadvantage the 3 A level students and it leaves more time for test preparation, super curriculars and perfecting those A stars. Perhaps that is the thinking behind the Kings Maths Schools.

One of my DC went to a school which was adamant that everyone must do an EPQ “because it was an academic school and universities expected it”. Nonsense, of course, but perhaps it was one of the head’s KPIs!

Anyway, the best advice I’ve seen on a college website is to email the admissions tutor if you have any doubts/queries about your subject choices and they will be only too happy to advise.

Much to agree with in your latest post, @Escapefrom1984

In particular, on the thread I was referring to someone referenced the Kings Maths Schools and stated that, at least initially, pupils could do only Maths, FM and Physics. Obviously Oxbridge was fine with this.

I also don’t disagree with your analysis of three vs four subjects. I think a self perpetuating circle of belief has developed

If your DTs will be applying to the top universities, I would try to find out what your sixth form writes in their 'general statement about the school' (which is part of the school's reference) regarding the number of A-levels. At our state grammar school, this section includes "Almost all of our students start with four A levels, with the majority completing all four". So yes, it could somewhat disadvantage anyone taking three A-levels.

Thank you all for such considered and helpful replies. It is really useful. Seems like it's really not clear cut. But on balance perhaps their time on the 4th could be used instead to really focus on the other three.
They're not interested in Cambridge (but they are interested in oxford- if it was a possibility) and not at a school that says most do 4 I don't think. Although most do definitely start on 4. I think the majority who stay on 4 are Maths/Further maths combination.
Good tip to ask the admissions tutors. Didn't cross my mind we'd be able to!
Ultimately they need to decide for themselves. Just want to be on hand to help put some potential pros and cons forward. Realise they're lucky to be in this position to have these choices. I definitely didn't at their age!

Oxford have info on this. I’ve attached it. 4 are not necessary but obviously FM could be so should be a 4th. Otherwise not necessary to do 4 but they want 3 academic ones - which they don’t name!

Did you take them when AS levels counted towards the final result?

You only get UCAS points from the top 3 A-Level grades you get.- 4 A stars is worth the same as 3 A stars, and the same as 3 A stars and a D.
Gowever, 2 A stars and 2 As is worth the same as 2 A stars and 1 A, so less than 3 A stars.

If thet are enjoying all 4 subjects and they aretargetung uni courses a typical offer of 2 A stars and 1 A then I think they should go for it. It's about enjoying study as well as the points you get.

If they would be heartbroken to miss out on a place which has a standard offer of 3 A stars and they are confident that with extra study time their probability of achieving that is goong to be significantly boosted then dropping a subject would be playing it safe, but there is then no room for slipups in the remaining 3, whereas 4 could mean that it doesn't matter if they have a bad day for one exan next summer.

My instinct says stick with 4.

@ExpertArchFormat Oxford doesn’t have a course requiring A star X 3.

My brother was taking 4 originally, History, English, History of Art (now defunct) and Art. He dropped Art after the first year because the workload for it was so time consuming that it took too much time away from the other subjects. He got into Cambridge with 3 and has done very well since. (Much, much younger brother I will add, there's almost a generation between us, so still young enough for this to be relevant.)

@ExpertArchFormat Most unis don’t want UCAS points. They want grades.

@TizerorFizz both your points @ - ing me are irrelevant to the point I was making. If a university goes by grades not UCAS points they still only look at the top 3. My illustration using specific grades was a simplified generic case but the same would be true for a lower set of grades to illustrate the same point.