“Worth” going to university at age 28?

[Choppedcoriander]

My DD is 27 and considering university. She has been working as a professional ballet dancer since she was 19 or so. She has top GCSEs - all A* - and A levels. Ideally she would want to do English, but thinks that would be an indulgence and won’t necessarily help with a non-dance career. She definitely does not want to do anything body related, like physiotherapy or medicine. Her A levels are now too long ago to “count” for university admission. At the moment she has an admin job paying 30k. Is going to university at this age worth it?

I'd do History if I were her. She could look at options in the civil service afterwards, or a law conversion.

Otherwise, I'd do whatever access course was needed to do Geography.

Tizerorfizz, am I right in recollecting that you work for a university career's service or something like that?

If she simply wants to study English and is happy to spend a lot of time and money doing just that, a degree is an option, but remember that nowadays so much of university is online, so it might boil down to a load of online lectures with teenagers and then writing essays in isolation at home. Not an experience I'd pay that sort of money for.

Even 35 years ago, when I did my English and American Studies degree, there was only 10 hours of lectures and tutorials a week. Not surprisingly, you spend a lot of time reading & writing for an English degree 😆

I found it worthwhile but I'm not sure I'd do it now as an earning 30 yo. I'd look at OU.

From a working and earning perspective, has she considered a degree apprenticeship?

Doing a degree with a career goal in mind makes more sense. She could otherwise end up in a similar job to the one she's now doing but with student debt as well.

OU is a good call and they offer short courses so she could try a few and get back into study that way.

For an 18-21 year old, the point of most degrees (that aren't specifically directed at a specific career track eg Law) is to provide proof to future employers that the person :

• can work hard when not forced by parents/school rules to do so
• has sufficient self-discipline to manage this
• can process large amounts of learning and reproduce the salient facts, and engage with the wider implications of those facts, without relying on anyone else (ie usually under exam conditions) ie you know how to learn without necessarily being "taught" in the way that school pupils are.

Most employers who specify they want a graduate will say "or equivalent experience" because all they really need is the first two. As a retired ballet dancer your daughter has the equivalent proof of her self-discipline and work ethic from her ballet experience. She should feel free to apply to graduate level jobs of that type with full confidence that she meets the requirements and a degree in English or History wouldn't give her any further advantage.

If she wants to target jobs where the requirement for graduate level qualification is to do with proving her ability to learn large volumes of information (eg where there are further professional qualifications to be taken post-degree) then yes she should do a degree, but she's right that an English or History degree may not be that useful for those.

Is that set in stone? I did an UG at 30. My a level equivalents were 10+ years prior. Also I would say go for it. I was a mature student and then did an MSc after.

Another option is she works for a university which can offer part time study at a much reduced rate. You are then tied in for a couple of years after

If going to university will lead her into her dream job then it’s worth it, certainly not worth doing it if it’s just to gain a degree but she isn’t sure what she wants to do.

in my job I have 2 friends who are mid to late 20s who are doing uni part time to give them a better qualification relating to our job meaning they will be able to get promoted and have a higher pay too.

its never too late if it’s something you really want to do.

My mum went at 45. Had a great time and then got much better jobs.

she got in on an interview and an assessment of voluntary work that she had done.

there are also access courses.

tour dd should enquire about alternative admission options.

my DH did OU in his late 30s cause he’d hit a ceiling in promotions and needed a degree to progress.

both thoroughly enjoyed their different experiences

I went to university aged 33, and did an English degree. I went on to have a successful career in the media until I retired.

@ThatloquacioustealdeerHa! No I don’t.

DD converted to law though and loads of law graduates and conversion grads don’t get law jobs that lead to being fully qualified. The DD here could do law but if she’s not really interested in it, it’s a slog. The conversion is now a masters so that’s another loan. Then there’s the qualification for solicitor (or barrister). It’s a slog for someone older and expensive. If anything I would look at management degrees. The best will get dd good employment.

@TizerorFizz ok, sorry! Must have got you mixed up with another poster.

I asked because I'm genuinely interested (if there's anyone who can shed light on it) on how degrees "open doors". For example, I'm all in favour of the study of history for its own sake - it makes us all wiser and better at assessing information etc. If someone offered me the chance to do a history degree, all expenses paid, on a three year sabbatical from my job, I'd jump at the chance. But in terms of the job market, I wouldn't expect it to put me in a better position. I'd be either going back to my old job, or seeking some entry-level history related job which would be far worse paid. I can't imagine a scenario where the OP's DD does a history degree, and an employer turns round and says "oh, you have a history degree now? That changes things - come in and let's talk".

I myself did a humanities degree, and my recollection of grad scheme employers (in general business areas) was - as long as you had a degree, the recruitment process was all competency based. These days, as I said, they will be recruiting for a lot of those same roles without the degree requirement.

Even a management degree - I am sceptical o the ROI when you take other factors into account and compare it to different routes e.g. apprenticeship, starting work earlier as an intelligent and driven young person.

To answer some questions:
Management is quite a good idea. Civil service fast track would interest her, but you can’t apply without a degree. DH and I both work in media and would advise against that. Law is a no-go. She works at a law firm now and is appalled at the quality of law graduates coming through the doors. Teaching is also a no-go. Birkbeck is interesting. We’d both assumed a degree from there would be at least six years, but in fact it’s four. She’s already done her dream career, so finding a second one might be a struggle. She doesn’t own a home, but does have a newish boyfriend, and she definitely does not want children. She definitely wants to earn more money than she currently does, so staying on 30k in admin is not an option.

@Choppedcoriander She might find being a barrister far more to her liking then. They are not low quality! Civil Service fast track is unbelievably difficult to ace. They produce the stats for applicants vs successful applicants. It’s sobering reading. I would look at a management degree at a top university if that’s of interest. Look at the Complete University Guide for a reasonable list.

@Thatloquacioustealdeer What your firm does isn’t what everyone else does. Many companies do have graduate entry schemes. They are looking for right fit and not a specific degree but the degree is what applicants have.

There’s nowhere near enough apprenticeships on offer when compared to university places. Personally I think universities have over expanded and diluted the product but any casual glance at our top companies, and you find graduate entry schemes. There’s list after list of the best firms for graduate employment. Of course they look for competencies but it’s interesting that the highly paid London law firms that dropped university name from applications still selected more Oxbridge grads than anyone else. Seems they ace the tests!

@TizerorFizz I'm taking about my experience over 20 odd years of being hired and of hiring in different workplaces, but I of course appreciate that sectors and industries vary.

Not surprised at all that Oxbridge grads come out on top! But I'm not sure what point that is supporting? You could use that fact to argue that natural ability is the main factor (as Oxbridge select the most able). Or you could use it to argue that Oxbridge adds most value in terms of a graduate's ability - which may well be plausible, as they seem to be the only unis that really insist on lots of face to face time and more work. I would never argue with anyone going to Oxbridge - seems worth the money as an experience alone.

I do think that a) the landscape is changing and that b) the stats we have been fed about "graduate premium" are very flawed. My main point here is that nobody should just assume that "uni will lead to higher earnings" or "employers will like a degree in X subject" unless that accords with real life evidence that this is likely to apply to them, in the sort of job they have in mind, as a result of the degree they are considering doing. It needs to be an informed decision that takes into account the costs (money as well as time out of the workplace) s well as the possible benefits. In general, when assessing a correlation for causation, one needs to consider what the causation mechanism might be.

I’m about to start 3rd year at 38. Work funded degree so no student debt either - it is business and management degree with a basis around HR and people management.

absolutely worth it - it’ll mean being able to move into HR directorship roles for me, rather than sitting around the senior managerial roles.

@Thatloquacioustealdeer The Telegraph thinks the grad earning stats are flawed. Obviously being an electrician would be a good career. Lots of people become self employed and financially outperform graduate salaries. That’s always an option. However most people who do that have built up a portfolio of work and experience or are professional consultants, again after a decent work period. Some go into family businesses and don’t need any qualifications at all really. However these are not huge numbers and other graduate recruitment lists show grads get a premium. Grad apprenticeships I think now have an age restriction. DD would take years to get a very average degree and wages below what she gets now. This is why the best courses at the best universities will remain popular.

But….. it matters which degree and which university attended. That’s the Oxbridge point. It’s also the point about Bath. Some degrees from some universities just are not worth it. It’s really important to separate out the degrees that lead to earning more. Some give far better options than others.

Thinking of DD here - what opportunities might there be with former dance employer? Who do they recruit to management roles?

I’m perhaps not the best person to listen to as I don’t have a well paid job, but I would think focusing on professional qualifications (eg CIPD if wanted to work in HR) would be better unless it’s a vocational degree that you need for a specific career path.

Earning 30k for an admin role is decent. I understand your DD wants to aim higher but if choosing a random degree without strong links to desired career not sure how much it could help. I think experience and professional qualifications are more desirable (unless your DD managed to get on a prestigious graduate scheme but they’re very competitive)

I did a humanities degree straight after A levels with an industrial placement. It helped prevent CV gaps (I was able to get a grad job straight out of uni despite graduating during difficult time of pandemic). However I currently don’t earn much more than your DD working in financial services and have student debt.

Lots of mature students go to university. However, as others have said, she should only go if she has a clear career path afterwards, rather than putting of a career path decisions for another three years.

@ASDnocareer Without a relevant job, CIPD is not easy. Graduate entry and study at level 7 is what most do these days. (Always did - I don’t have a degree and got CIPD through experience and exams but most on the course had a degree and were 21/22). There’s the employee route with just experience but you have to get the job and slog through to get CIPD status. The exam route post degree is much quicker.

For anyone interested in the graduate premium stats, Google the name Paul Wiltshire. The Telegraph, among others, have covered his research, but it's not a piece of work done by the Telegraph. The Office for Statistics Regulation (a government watchdog) agreed with him that the Department of Education had given a misleading picture.

Presumably she loves performing and creativity. I would look at those and see what is out there for options degree or no degree. I live next to an ex- professional ballet dancer and she does a mixture of ballet teaching with local children, working in a theatre production team, choreographing with a London dance school and adult fitness classes (based on ballet). Is she not interested in anything like that?

The DforE isn’t doing the only research on grad remuneration. The ifs is reliable in what they research. Recruiters research too. Why is one body of research more reliable than anyone else’s? What always matters is fit to the job and the whole package a grad brings.

When self employed teaching, there’s not a huge amount to be made if you pay into a pension and have overheads.

Ad someone who's been to uni aged 19, then 24 and the last time 33, I'd say you're never too old. I'm umming and aching about a masters now and I'm almost 50.

Two of my degrees were for specific careers but I genuinely enjoy learning.

OP, not wanting to go off topic, but how much does a professional ballet dancer earn? I'm so curious! And how many years can you do that for?