Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Medicine - Shortage of FY1 jobs

14 replies

TheJollyCoralEagle · 19/05/2025 20:47

I'm not sure how many people are part of the Wiwikau group on Facebook (if you aren't, then definitely join, it's really useful) but this was a very enlightening and eye opening thread about there being a significant shortage of FY1 jobs and not enough places for all final year medical students this year.
There are also quite a few comments from doctors who have encouraged their children not to study medicine. For various reasons.
I'm not trying to stir anything, I just thought it would be useful info for anyone whose YP is considered studying medicine so that they can make an informed decision about whether medicine is the right career choice for them.
Especially considering the sacrifices needed and effort involved to get an offer for medicine.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/19HSk7Kcbt/

OP posts:
littlemissprosseco · 19/05/2025 21:01

I’m a medic, I definitely discouraged my children. With varying results!
Its ridiculous out there at the moment

Koazy · 20/05/2025 06:36

I saw this, very interesting. Someone has explained it well on their website too. Luckily mine don’t want to go down the medic path but the amount of doctors saying don’t do it was eye opening. It sounds awful.

MoominUnderWater · 20/05/2025 06:51

Job situation is awful. For all other healthcare professions as well currently.

my local hospital is currently running a Voluntary redundancy scheme which is unheard of. Never thought I’d see the day with the nhs worse off under a Labour govt but here we are.

The employment situation is shit across the U.K. full stop. Dd was a non healthcare graduate but had a degree in a specific subject/sector where you have to get a training job for a year as the next step. Out of the 50 students in her cohort she was one of 2 to get a job. I reckon nationwide that year there were about ten jobs advertised.

saw a nmw barista job advertised recently, said needed 4 years experience. wtf!

companies just aren’t employing. I know the nhs has taken a lot of overseas workers so don’t have vacancies now. Which is bonkers to have people training and then no job (remember every medical student costs the government/taxpayer a lot of money to train). I also wonder if the NI changes are affecting employment generally? Really feels like we’re in a recession.

Needmoresleep · 20/05/2025 08:19

Healthcare (doctors, nurses etc) is particularly bad. There have been a few threads on AIBU including a current one on F2s not being able to find work. (And the problem goes on further up the training path.)

The basic problem seems to relate to the lifting of the Resident Market Labour Market Test in about 2022, with a previous decision to add a very large number of health service roles to a list of professions with skills shortages. (@mumsneedwine is on top of the detail as always.)

I am not sure how this affects F1. There have always been a fair number of IMGs (graduates of international medical schools) doing F1. In the past they picked up slots that others did not want. I once met the head of a medical school in Penang who said he could place good students in the UK but never in London. Now merit (points) are no longer part of the allocation process I assume IMGs have an equal shot at the very sought-after research-heavy deaneries. (Especially valuable given the real shortage of training places and the fact that these are now fully open to international competition leading to an arms race in exam scores and CV enhancements.)

I do not know how open F1 is to IMGs. If the NHS is still taking them in equal/increased numbers despite the increase in medical school places, they will presumably be on equal terms when it comes to allocations. Rather than filling spare slots. If this is the case, and the number of available F1s is higher than the number of positions, then there will be some UK medical schools graduates who will not have jobs.

Post F2 is a war zone. DD only knows of two F2s in her whole Deanery who have training for next year, one of which is for GP. F3 type roles (short term contracts, Fellowships, house jobs) are open to full international competition, attracting hundreds of applicants, and more likely to go to someone with experience than a post-F2 who needs that experience. There is obviously Australia, but with the new problem that if you go not only are you rightly behind Australian residents when it comes to popular jobs and training but it is now very hard to come back.

And it goes on. Further up the training path those on the ladder then have to compete with applicants coming off 2+2 schemes where, say, Doctors can take half their specialist training in India and then take up training posts in the UK.

So years and years of having to work and study hard, and move to where the work is, with a constant threat of unemployment. Whilst your peers have been able to establish their careers, settle, start families and so on.

DD has nothing come August. She did not apply for training during F2, in part because she had very busy rotations (nights in five out of six) and is in a Deanery still using the old contract so less support and no personal development time. Just as well as she has realised she much prefers another specialisation over the one she always thought she wanted to do. She is likely to sign up for NHS bank and hope for enough zero hours short term work to pay her way. This may be difficult as she will have to pay her own insurance and the person regularly locuming in the department she would want to work in and where she would be welcome, failed to get onto training so it may be two of them now competing for the same amount of work. The headlines about Doctors driving ubers or working in other zero hour jobs are true.

The other thread has evolved into a discussion about lobbying, so collecting bullet points about issues (so many) and targets. You can only write to your own MP, but there are plenty of others, health journalists, people involved in NHS policy making etc who should be aware. I bumped into Aphra Brandeth MP at an event and kindly asked if I could bend her ear, only to discover that a constituent had been to her surgery that morning worried about a doctor daughter who has got stuck in Australia unable to return. She has started submitting MPs questions on the issue. I understand there is another MP active on Twitter also covering part of the same issue. .

The Government/NHS need to:

  1. carry out a quick survey of current F2s to find out what is happening on the ground, and not just assume that they are leaving the profession or for Australia because they want to, and so work out the solution is not to redouble international recruitment efforts or further limit job opportunities by increasing the number of PAs. They might do the same for newly graduating medics. .
  2. Take important entry level roles and training (nurses as well as doctors) off the skills shortage list, helping ensure that there are opportunities for those already in the UK (this includes doctors from overseas who have come to the end of the contracts that brought them over here, and who are possibly struggling the most to find something new.) Or review the lifting the the RMLT.
  3. Look at some of the immigration settlement incentives, exams exceptions, agency support and expedited career paths offered to doctors applying from overseas and ensure that there is at least a level playing field for those already in the UK. (We are the only comparable country that do not give preference to residents.)
Needmoresleep · 20/05/2025 12:37

And a vacuous reply from the department of health.

And, per my link upthread, a split between the BMA resident doctor committee and the BMA GP committee. One arguing for priority for UK residents. The other stressing the importance of international recruitment.

Needmoresleep · 20/05/2025 12:45

Sorry my link was on another thread. This
report from the BMA GP committee effectively ser out the current debate around overseas recruitment vs 'protectionism'.

It may be that the NHS should retain open recruitment, but if so we should not be allowing so many to graduate from our medical schools when we don't have jobs for them.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/education-and-training/gps-criticise-juniors-for-protectionist-policy-against-international-graduates/

mumsneedwine · 20/05/2025 13:15

Leaders of the GP BMA committee are all IMGs I believe.

OneMorePiece · 20/05/2025 14:19

Yes, the BMA felt it had to issue an apology because certain IMG groups don't want prioritisation for UK doctors. The current system serves their interests better. Lots of IMGs though do back the Resident Doctors Committee of the BMA and understand the case for prioritisation of the UK medical graduates before international ones but there is just too much resistance from other IMG groups for various reasons.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OneMorePiece · 20/05/2025 14:35

Here's the BMA's Resident Doctors' Commitee prioritisation policy. It is facing opposition though as mentioned in the previous posts. They were pushing this in the hope of having their training issues resolved but it faces opposition. Without prioritisation of UK doctors, many are facing unemployment.

www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/international-doctors/studying-and-training-in-the-uk/ukrdc-uk-graduate-prioritisation-policy-faqs

littlemissprosseco · 21/05/2025 14:10

Unfortunately the government doesn’t care. They will…. Eventually. As they are reactive, not proactive

Needmoresleep · 21/05/2025 16:34

I agree. It is a problem that cannot be ignored for ever. One year of unemployed F2s is bad; a second year would be awful. By a third year they would look wasteful and incompetent especially when set off against the general backdrop of a failing NHS.

The quick fix would be to identify a set of jobs suitable for newly qualified HCPs, whether doctors, nurses or midwives and to start protecting them via reinstatement of a RMLT. They also need to sort out the training situation.

I suspect that NHS policy makers have not really factored in the likelihood of IMGs staying within the NHS once they complete training. 20-30 years ago a good proportion stayed whilst others went home to make a valuable contribution to their developing health services. This is not true now. Many will instead be aiming for well paid jobs in third country private health sectors.

I don't think NHS policy makers really understand how valuable UK training is for the vast numbers graduating from private medical schools in Asia, and how much some of these, will be investing in preparation.

Policy makers are aware of the strength of some lobby groups, though perhaps have not properly considered the extent these groups aims are in conflict with the long term heath and viability of the NHS.

My big concern is the extent to which access to NHS training and jobs is part of the trade deal with India. At the start of negotiations we wanted their more experienced doctors to plug gaps whilst they wanted development opportunities for their newly qualified. I really hope Starmer has not given too much away. Government ministers will also need a fair dose of courage to withstand the inevitable calls of racism if and when they decide to put British residents first.

The best we can do is to try to ensure as many people with influence are aware of and understand the problems and the need for early effective action.

OneMorePiece · 21/05/2025 21:47

Agree that many of the International Medical Graduates (IMGs) that come now may not stay given the working conditions in the NHS. Rather than have UK GPs unemployed, the NHS should be prioritising them for jobs ahead of IMGs. Many of the IMGs who have secured GP training here are leaving as soon as they qualify. This is a wasteful use of the NHS budget. The medics already here should have been offered the jobs rather than face unemployment.

I wonder if the NHS keeps a track of the destinations or career pathways of the IMGs they take on. Failing to invest in the domestic workforce is the wrong approach. So is training the workforce for another country because that country doesn't have enough postgraduate training places for their medical graduates. Why do that when the UK has training bottlenecks of its own?

The Labour government are now having to deal with the mess left by the Tories.

Look at point 33 (about the NHS) of the document published in 2021 linked below. It is about the 2030 Roadmap for India UK relations. Boris was the PM at the time. Labour inherited a mess.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/india-uk-virtual-summit-may-2021-roadmap-2030-for-a-comprehensive-strategic-partnership/2030-roadmap-for-india-uk-future-relations

2030 Roadmap for India-UK future relations

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/india-uk-virtual-summit-may-2021-roadmap-2030-for-a-comprehensive-strategic-partnership/2030-roadmap-for-india-uk-future-relations

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread