Applying for maths at Cambridge

[Laurensorrenson]

Hello, my son is in his first year of A levels, he's taking 4 subjects , including maths and further maths. He was given the option to sit his maths A level a year early, this year.
He is applying for Cambridge to study maths, should he take his A level in maths early or should he sit all 4 next year. If he takes an early A level does it affect his application for Cambridge?

Friend's child got a 2 A star A star A offer for maths from St Andrews that could not include the Maths A star they'd done at the end of y12. They ended up getting an A star for further maths but As for the other two so wouldn't have got the grades despite having two A stars and two As over all (they might have been let in anyway I guess, but they didn't firm St A anyway).

Thanks all.
He's decided to take all four A levels next year as he's strong in maths and physics, but may not achieve a top grade in his 4th subject.

Hi, OP -

May I ask (for your private consideration) whether he has done this in consultation with admissions tutors at Cambridge and another favourite? Because on the whole the Cambridge FAQ seems to suggest that the early exam is fine.

My concern was awakened by your comment on the fourth A level. If a grade A is virtually in the bag, with A stars dead certs in the other three subjects, this is fine. Anything less than this and DS will have a stronger admissions profile without the Chemistry. Three A stars is better than two A stars and two As and it descends from there.

The Cambridge website says over 88% of students in normal recent years have had three A stars with 92% including Physics. Just over half have Chemistry. The overlap is not explained there. This forum and the online forum The Student Room have contained many recent posts concerning Cambridge students admitted with just Maths, FM and Physics.

DS could ask Cambridge admissions tutors about the value or weight of a fourth A level. My guess is that, as the FAQ I referred to above suggests, three A levels and two STEP exams is ample. STEP leaves A levels in the dust.

No university in the land requires four A levels. Just make sure FM counts as a ‘full’ A level - there are a very few places where it may not.

Can I just take you up on the 4 A levels point? (And sorry for a slight derail, but it may be relevant for those applying in the future.)

Unis may not require 4 A levels, but if your application shows that you are studying 4 A levels you may get locked into a 4 A level offer and not be able to drop one. Eg Imperial makes an A star A Star A standard offer to those studying 3 A levels but an A star A star AA offer to those studying 4. Similarly I know of students with Cambridge offers in History and Geography where they were made 4 A level offers and then weren’t allowed to drop one. Oxford on the other hand seems to be more flexible and students studying 4 were able to drop down to 3 after receiving an offer. With admissions it seems the devil is in the detail! Always worth asking at Open Days.

I wonder if the discussion you mentioned about an increase in students only offering physics and double maths at Cambridge is related to the Kings Maths School? Until recently they only offered 3A levels (physics and double maths) and they would have put forward some very strong Oxbridge candidates. I think they now offer a few subjects for 3rd A level (physics, comp sci, economics and philosophy), but still only 3 A levels. Perhaps there are some exceptions.

Your advice is always very helpful and I just wanted to add this point so that all the research is done before submitting UCAS form. I agree, 3 A stars stands out better than 2 A stars and 2 As. I think some schools are a bit slow to accept this and want to “show off” that their pupils mainly do 4. I think that is misguided.

Hi, @Noonehastheanswer -

A most interesting post! Thank you for giving us all sone good things to consider.

I just looked up King’s Maths School because I don’t know much about it. It’s quite small with a sixth form of under 150 pupils at present, though growth is planned. It has a fabulous Oxbridge success rate; the number I found is 38%.

If we assume 75 pupils in Y13 and generously assume that all are doing Maths at university, and assume a 50-50 split between Cambridge and Oxford, we round up to 38 Cambridge candidates of whom 7-8 are successful in a given year. They aren’t skewing the statistics notably, but it was definitely worth thinking about.

I agree with your analysis of the four A level situation at Cambridge and Imperial, and in general. Technically it is worse than that: if you list four A levels on your UCAS application, then you must inform each uni you’ve applied to when you drop one. Technically each uni must approve. If you don’t, a uni is within its rights to void your offer, even if the offer was made on three A levels.

I wish schools would get the message that three A stars trumps two A stars and two As! Not that the latter is less than superb, of course, but we want to see what pupils can do at their best.

Oops!! My arithmetic sucks! If we have 38 Cambridge candidates we have about 13 successes, don’t we? Still not greatly affecting statistics however.

Think I need some 🍷 after a long day.

Thanks @poetryandwine and @Noonehastheanswer . My DS did go to the Cambridge maths open day, they told him any offer would be on 3 A levels. Hopefully he'll make it with a contextual offer....we are very contextual...dirt contextual 😂

Well, then, OP, how committed is your DS to his fourth subject? Would he be willing to check with admissions tutors at a couple of his preferred Colleges to see whether they think he has a good reason to continue his fourth A level?

His school may also have a Cambridge or Oxford College partner and he could ask their advice, if so. If the School and the Colleges have different advice I would go with the Colleges every time. The School may have its own reasons for wanting to enter a top pupil in four exams. Ignore them. Your DS comes first.

It is not too soon for DS to start thinking about STEP. Every Cambridge offer comes with a STEP condition. Cambridge write this exam and set the grade boundaries so that only about 50% of Cambridge offer holders make their offer each year. The Cambridge STEP website is very good. If this year was a guide, in the Autumn MEI will offer a series of revisions classes in very small groups for just under £200/pupil in total. If you can make it a priority to send DS (perhaps he can earn some of the money) I strongly recommend it. Details will be at the MEI website.

STEP covers A level and FM material but as you may gather it is brutal. Pupils from private schools with good connections to Cambridge get STEP tuition at school and lucky others get very expensive tutoring. The MEI classes are a good alternative.

Best wishes to DS

Yes, Kings Maths school has an astounding Oxbridge placement rate but not all of the pupils go on to do maths at university.

IIRC in 2023 they had 6 pupils go to Cambridge to do maths and a couple went to Oxford.

Quite a few of the other pupils do medicine, engineering, economics etc.

DS wanted to do maths and further maths A levels in year 11 after teaching himself both subjects. We had plenty of conflicting advice as to whether it was a good idea or not.

He was fairly confident he could he get A* in maths and at least an A in further maths and if necessary, retake in Yr 13.

Even contacting Cambridge University didn’t give a definitive answer so he decided to stick to GCSEs only this summer.

Obviously I know nothing about your DS so this is no reflection on him.

However a friend in America is a Maths professor in an excellent university with its own associated high school. A number of bright pupils push through the school Maths curriculum early and take Y2/Y3 level university Maths modules while in high school. None of them taught by my friend have gone on to great things.

One of my friend’s own DC is mathematically gifted and my friend insisted that DC take their time and go for depth and enrichment. They did Advanced Placement BC Calculus in Y11 (one year early) and AP Physics in Y12. But they understood the material to a fantastic depth and were fantastically well prepared for Y2 university Maths and Physics.

There is no rush. Depth and understanding are the keys to the future.

OP your son is fine doing maths this year. The Cambridge maths website gives excellent advice on what’s needed. Some of the colleges have different rules about whether you can take a gap year so pay attention to that if needed. Start on STEP early and perhaps in the summer holidays your ds can pick an extracurricular maths activity and devote some time to it - this helps with the UCAS form. I have a dc who has trodden this path, successfully.

Totally agree with you! It was more by accident than design that he accelerated at maths. If it hadn’t been for Covid, he would have taken his GCSE at primary school.

By the time he applied to secondary schools, we were told by their Heads of Maths that broadening and deepening his learning was more suitable than trying to go faster.

However we didn’t really know about any enrichment type activities and his secondary school wasn’t much help.

It’s partly because of this that he applied to maths schools last year and he has offers to start this September.

Everything that we saw at the schools suggested it would be the right environment for him now with the amazing super-curricular activities and the particular style of teaching,

That’s wonderful, @Dangermouse999

Best wishes to DS