Trump and Harvard

[TizerorFizz]

Has anyone seen that Trump is trying to bully Harvard over them not accepting his demands which would remove academic independence? He is removing $2bn funding and tax exemp status. They do have a $50bn endowment but Trump is trying to get them to agree to his demands. How worried is everyone by this? Sounds outrageous to me.

Very worried.

Gilead is nigh.

Harvard has been a bit of a joke ever since the top woman was done for plagiarism. Perhaps they need a bit of intervention.

He has 4 yrs. If they can hold out that long, they'll be fine.

So far they've told him to do one. Hopefully others will do the same.

The Ivies have the endowments and reserves to withstand the Trump administration so I’m not worried about Harvard.

I’m worried about the impact it will have when it trickles down to state schools. Especially those in red states where the DfE going will have more of an impact.

I'm more worried about the police state where you can arrest a student for protesting and keep them confined, without any charges.

@AelinAG That is not what a commentator said on R4 today. They tend to use income from endowments, not the endowment itself. It will deplete their reserves if they have to be diverted. All might not be 100% ok at Harvard but at least they have stood up to him. Plenty of other institutions are doing his bidding. The commentator said the demands were so outrageous there was no way Harvard could agree.

I would also not be so sure this is only for 4 years. J D Vance could be the awful future.

Really glad you brought this up, @TizerorFizz , and extremely glad Harvard has decided to fight.

Many endowment funds are restricted but could possibly be (legally) made available in an emergency. The question is, what constitutes an emergency? Also dipping into the endowment may be bad for future fundraising. I suspect Harvard can use this fight for fundraising, however, and good on them for that.

FWIW my understanding is that Trump is only threatening to remove Harvard’s tax exempt status. The status is determined by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). Trump has just lost his 3rd acting Commissioner in three months; she resigned over pressure to give ICE tax data on immigrants. He may realise he can’t afford to pressure a fourth so soon.

But the whole thing is outrageous. American HE was terrified Harvard would cave as others have. That would have been the end.

I am also very worried about trickle doen interference, @AelinAG , but this gives everyone a better chance than they had 48 hrs ago.

PS @TizerorFizz you are correct, it is the income from endowments that is used (and, apparently - this was a Harvard professor writing in the NY Times recently - can legally be diverted in a real emergency. But the bar is very high)

I was very relieved to see they've decided to fight. I mean, from the orange wanker's point of view, he wins whatever happens. But plenty of people lose if universities lose academic freedom. The ideal would be if they just ignore him as much as possible.

@poetryandwine I think the R4 guest was Professor Pinker. He said there were things he has criticised Harvard for, but not this. The BBC is saying the Administration is withholding research grants. ($2 bn according to them but the Guardian says $9 bn). Harvard received a letter of demands and required them to essentially axe its DEI programme and how it runs some courses. He said some Law Schools had already agreed to the Trump demands and Bloomberg has reported this. He also thiyght Harvard could not lose this money indefinitely.

Sorry I didn’t know about this but I’m interested. Can someone explain in more layman’s terms what is happening.

Well Trump is definitely threatening to change Harvard’s tax status, but this is not within his personal power, and for the president to pursue a vendetta through the IRS is very much against the law. I mean, even more blatantly than the stuff he has been doing. He would need to find a toady Commissioner and it would need to be upheld by the courts.

I saw $2 Bn on the BBC and also in the NY Times. Shocking.

Hello, @MrsDThaskala -

President Trump is on a vendetta against certain US universities. His cover story is that he must be sure they have rooted out Diversity, Equity and Inclusion initiatives as ordered, and also rooted out anti-semitism.

Why am I putting them in that order when the second is so serious? Because Trump is.

Many universities including great ones did cross the line and fail to protect Jewish members of their communities in the concerns over Gaza, but they have mostly come a long way and are still working on this.
Meanwhile Elon Musk went to war with ‘overheads’ on federal research grants, which cover things like admin salaries, heating and cooling (necessary in harsh climates for people and experiments), lab security, etc. Trump seems to have realised that research grants are a cudgel.

It has all come together in his War on Woke. Columbia, Penn (I think) and others succumbed to threats and have agreed to external (not sure what this means) oversight of various aspects of their governance.

Then Trump went after Harvard; it was inevitable. His first step is always to freeze a large amount of federal grant funding and lay out some demands. The second step has always been for the university to cave. Harvard didn’t.

Trump increased both his demands, which now include plagiarism checks on all academics and Federal access to all admissions data, external audit or supervision of several world leading Graduate (that’s postgraduate in the UK) Schools, and more that I can’t remember in addition to blocking the $2 bn of grant funding, and his threats which now include the tax threat.

The good news is that Harvard has very deep pockets and the world’s richest donors. They can fight and they will win in court. The bad news is that Trump is on the verge of actively defying the courts.

I read the letter to Harvard with interest. It should be of interest to anyone who is thinking of studying in the US, including those in an exchange programme. It seems to me that you’d be well advised to delete all social media if there is a merest hint that you’re not a fan of Trump. Or risk your visa being withdrawn.

The Guardian did good coverage yesterday.

It is a good article, @TizerorFizz

It will be very interesting to see whether Trump obeys the courts on this.

No one would willingly send a kid there to study this year, surely? When he is out the whole country will have a lot of scientific research to catch up on too, which is a worry.

All we can hope is their brightest and best come here to study and wait it out...

96% of harvards endowment is restricted meaning it is for specific support and not to say fund the cost of running the university. Mostly grants for research and scholarships etc. that’s not to say they will capitulate. The brand is so strong as is the alumni base.

I agree the impact on scientific research is deeply worrying.

I don’t think there will be much impact on the desirability of Harvard as an undergraduate destination.

Apologies, I should have said ‘impact on research’. Much good research in the Humanities and Social Sciences is also affected

I was a bit simplistic. It’s not like they can just go and drain all those things, but in emergencies they can be more flexible.

by reserves I also meant things like patents, collections, their estates. They take a more exclusive approach to that sort of thing at the minute, but they could change that approach and drum up a decent chunk of change

Whatever the finer details, huge institutions like Harvard with strong alumni bases and decent spheres of influence will be able to ride out the storm, even if they are battered and bruised at the end.

I find it dreadful that any politician would seek to harm a world leading university. You would imagine plenty of Republicans are alumni. I’d love to hear what they think.

Please forgive a stupid question, but could Harvard move outside of the US to escape Trump that way ?
I know this wouldn't be a simple task btw and that thousands of people probably work there and have families and lives in the area. Perhaps they could move to satellite sites outside of the US though ?

An interesting question. I think this would be seen as capitulation, whereas Harvard is almost certain (largely) to win the legal challenge they have decided to fight. And can afford.