Daughter has law offers - which should she choose?

[scattysue]

My daughter applied to Bristol, Warwick, King's, UCL and Nottingham for law. She got 34 in the LNAT which is apparently great (state school student with no help). 8.2 in essay. She has got offers from all 5 unis but her school now suggest she should turn them all down and apply next year to Oxford (NB: she did not apply to Oxbridge this year). What do you think?

poetryandwine I had already posted the links from both the Cambridge and the Oxford websites which are probably the definitive versions of what circumstances would allow an application.

Also, with respect, as far as potential goes, since the OP has only posted once, we can't know whether or not the signals of were there. That's exactly why I asked the OP what the DD's GCSE results were. We also don't know what sort of state school it is - it might well be a high achieving one. Posters are filling in gaps with no evidence whatever. It would be unusual for a strong LNAT to spring from seemingly nowhere so my guess (only a guess) is that the DD chose not to apply to Oxford this year for any number of reasons.

I would go on where she wants to live and her personality

Warwick is more left wing and a little nerdy although the clubbing types will find each other

Bristol has wild nightlife and probably lots of drugs

London uni experience is expensive and more international than the uni towns, does she want that?

Nottingham lovely green campus and everyone in halls eats together, and they have little bars

I would pick Bristol and not bother to try Oxbridge and Oxbridge changes are always pretty low and why waste a year and then fail?
I have 3 lawyer children (last 2 qualified last year) who chose Bristol over Durham (they did not try Oxbridge) and I similarly (lawyer) did not try Oxbridge and it has not harmed any of us.

One of my lawyer children went to Nottingham .This is a slightly old list but still pretty good and has Bristol and Durham above Nottingham. My son's friend enjoyed Warwick despite the accommodation issues, where you live v the town etc and wanted a place with lots of Asian boys I think so Warwick he felt would meet that criteria more than Durham etc. My children are white, not that it matters. Warwick is a very good university too.

https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities-2019

If your daughter does want a career in law do make sure she knows even exam results in first year in every module need to go on law firm applications and there are lots of deadlines for things like vac schemes and training contracts during the 3 university years - that does not all start after the end of the LLB.

It can start when you want it to start Xenia. Some DC on these threads are still looking for Training Contracts despite doing all the 'right things' in terms of applications etc. Others decide on a law career after finals and get multiple offers of Training Contracts from Magic Circle firms on their first applications.

It's not always a good idea to do things by rote. It won't harm, but equally it won't confer ability where ability isn't there.

This is true! I didn't realise she would have to take it again - although she did!

To give more background: she is at a state comprehensive that is rated 'good' but not outstanding. She joined there in 6th form (we moved from one region of UK to another) and was not invited to join her new school's Oxbridge programme. So she didn't consider Oxbridge. Not sure why she wasn't asked to join as she got 8 x grade 9, 1 x grade 8 and a grade 6 in Maths. But apparently new entrants to the 6th form are rarely selected.

She is thinking of going to Bristol as she liked it when she visited. She has watched TikToks of Warwick and thinks campus looks boring (!) and we can't really afford London.

Was it just a bad day with the Maths OP? It's a bit of an anomaly especially with the strong LNAT which requires similar thinking skills.

UCL is highest ranked law course in the UK iirc. No way would I risk a UCL offer just because a school she is about to leave wants to up its Oxbridge intake percentage.

That's bad to get overlooked - but I've seen it happen before with new joiners to a sixth form.

Her LNAT essay was genuinely outstanding and her score of 34 would put her near the upper end of the Oxford range. I would encourage her to accept Bristol for now but to think about Oxford seriously and make a decision after her A level results are in.

I disagree about the course being 'dry'. Each to their own.

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-subject-rankings/law-legal-studies

Oxford is currently second after Harvard and before Cambridge; UCL is fourteenth (tbf fourth in the UK). Bristol is tie sixty fifth.

I’d really encourage her to visit offer days if she’s not already seen the universities in person. London is higher loan and places like Bristol are expensive so I wouldn’t necessarily assume cheaper cost to you as parents. I’m sure she will succeed wherever she chooses. Deadline isn’t until June so I wouldn’t rush it.

If she's intending to practice in London then that may be a deterrent to being there for three years prior, despite UCL clearly being the best regarded of the options.

In terms of timing once at university for applications - it can start when you want it to start only if you are very rich and privileged. Law firms recruit years ahead so if you don't apply during university then you will be left with no sponsorship for the SQE year after your LLB or having to fund it through a masters loan or years and years on lower pay as a paralegal.

Yes, @Auchencar

I and others should have thanked you for linking. It isn’t technically impossible for DD to apply to Oxford whilst enrolled elsewhere but her situation would be a long way from the spirit of the exceptional circumstances they are looking for. I was known as quite a sympathetic admissions tutor and I wouldn’t buy it.

More importantly, it is important to settle into your degree programme enthusiastically. DD has great options and she is very intelligent. She should pick one and embrace it.

I understand your interest in her GCSEs but OP’s original post was phrased in such a way as to suggest that the LNAT was a big surprise to everyone. We can see now that sadly her school doesn’t afford new entrants at sixth form due consideration.

OP, the 34 is a terrific mark. For calibration, Oxbridge offer holders have average LNAT marks of 30-31. But it won’t mark DD out at her choices, except possibly at Notts. Eg Kings reported in a recent year having six or seven applicants with marks of 37. I found this by doing a search on ‘LNAT percentiles’

i did law at uni. Desperately wanted to go to Oxford but got rejected, unlike a few of my friends. I still remember how gutted I was.

Went to Birmingham instead.

Beat bit of luck I ever had being turned down by Oxford. Not only did I love Birmingham the city, and the uni, and the amazing friends I made there, and the course, but I kept in touch the with Oxford people and they were worked to the absolute bone. Some enjoyed it, some hated it, none had noticeably better prospects than I did.

Go for the uni you like the look of best. Which course floats your boat? What is the city like? Oxford is all name and not necessarily anything to hang about for.

UCl is the top uni for law. So I’d pick that one.

theres no guarantee of a place at Oxford, even with top grades, and the structure of the law degree there is v different and might not suit her.

poetryandwine purely as a point of precision, I don't think anyone has thanked me for the website links, including yourself.

As I said in a previous post, a strong LNAT doesn't tend to spring from nowhere and so OP has confirmed what I suspected - strong GCSEs too albeit with a blip in Maths. That shores up an Oxford application, because even with A levels in hand, Oxford still looks at GCSEs.

I know that it's hard to join a new school in the sixth form and then push to join an 'Oxbridge programme'. It's a real shame - these so called 'programmes' can do the opposite of what they intend and effectively exclude students who have plenty of ability but not necessarily the confidence to ask to be included. Being new to the school creates an additional barrier.

jewlcase what do you mean by 'all name'?! Oxford has a name for good reasons. The implication is that Oxfprd's reputation isn't a thing of substance - top law firms and chambers say different.

Not so Xenia. Anecdote coming but I happen to know that DS2's route was far from isolated in his peer group: no thought of a law career, had a grad scheme fixed up in the City, took finals, got a first (Oxford as it happens), applied in the Autumn to the Magic Circle, got offers (plural) and they paid for the (this is old money) GDL and LPC. DS2 gave notice to the bank he was with on accepting one of the Magic Circle offers and travelled - well, pretty much the world. Topped up his account with two to three months tutoring a primary aged child in Mustique and that funded trips to Australia, Columbia and Europe. He started the GDL relaxed and with an excellent tan. He didn't ask for and didn't get a single penny from anyone else.

Unless she actually wants to try for Oxford, she should go and visit the unis she has offers from and see how she feels. They are all very different. Consider whether she wants campus or city, London or not London, cost of living in each city and so on. All of them are good enough unis for her to be considered by the top law firms. Of those I would probably choose Bristol.

Terrible advice from school! Oxford isn’t the be all and end all. Academically I’d go for Warwick. But in reality I’d want my daughter to choose the one she preferred the vibe and atmosphere of, and go with her gut.

@Auchencar I would have thought that in colloquial terms the fact that I pointed out that I and others should have thanked you would count for something. I have not been at all focussed on the regs at all because I know them so well, and did this because no one else had stepped forward.
I did not expect a reaction focussed on precision.

I think we agree that DD’s school shot itself in the foot by not inviting her into the Oxbridge programme. I am not British and find myself sometimes wanting to scream in frustration at the rigidities here.

Well I suppose I find it odd that you claim that you and others thanked me for linking two very obvious links when you/ they did nothing of the sort. It's just a bit weird. That said, I certainly don't need thanks - it took me two seconds. But still, curious, hence me pointing it out.

I don't agree that the DD's school 'shot itself in the foot'. I think the school fell into the common trap of not really looking carefully enough at the new intake into the sixth form and I think they may have done a disservice to the OP's DD.

But I find these 'Oxbridge programme' things a bit of a nonsense. They're divisive and not necessary.

Oh my goodness you said should have. I'm so sorry poetryandwine I was attempting to cook and could have sworn you said that you thanked me. That'll show me! Massive apologies for misreading. I thought you were being odd but nothing of the sort. That's bad - another sorry.

UCL, Bristol and KCL are top 10 for Law. In terms of the best paying law jobs in London, and certainly the Bar, Oxbridge is still the best. If she likes a city university, Warwick will seem odd. Did she visit any of these?

Regarding Oxford. There’s the interview. Assuming A levels are great, will she have to take LNAT again? Or will her 2024 result stand? I don’t know! Sometimes - a bird in the hand etc. Bright lawyers from Bristol, KCL or UCL really won’t be disadvantaged. In UK law I don’t think many really worry about world rankings. They recruit uni blind and you prove yourself at work - that supersedes university.