Student support suggesting DD withdraw from exams and course.

[BuntyFayreweather]

DD is in her first year of her course. After a meeting with student support she has said they recommended she didn't sit her exams or continue the course.
They stated she couldn't change subjects unless she did this. They won't allow her to return to the university.
She's got a huge debt and I think she should be allowed to sit the exams anyway.
Am I missing something?
we just did resits in the autumn.
She's been absent a fair bit due to her ill health and mine.
These exams are a repeat of her foundation degree. She's a disabled student but doesn't seem to be getting reasonable adjustments.
Any advice welcome.

I don't want to go into the reasons for her ill health but she has female issues. I'm currently awaiting my biopsy results after major surgery. She's terrified.
She's a very clever gentle soul. I didn't want her to throw the towel in.

Academic here - it is possible that the university where she did her Foundation year was overly optimistic about the equivalence of the foundation course. My university does not offer foundation courses that let you skip a year, though an acquaintance did an OU course that allowed them to skip a year on one degree course but not another one, so I imagine it's highly variable. So don't set too much store by that - the repeat of topics does NOT mean she's doing the same thing as in her Foundation course. Our students think they are re-doing A levels in 1st year and coast... and then have a nasty shock.

Not all accommodations that students want for disability are possible, and some are possible for a small proportion of modules but not for everything. For example, if students have 5 pieces of coursework due in 5 weeks, but ask for extensions of all of them they may end up with them all due at the same time, which is not sensible. Students may want to do labs on their own due to communication difficulties, but this isn't always possible because many labs are not designed to be done singly. Etc.

It sounds that although she is capable it is her absences that are the problem. Resits are all very well (they are often in July/August) but usually you only need to resit one module or even one part of one module. It sounds like she is too far behind for that to be feasible.

In terms of student finance you are allowed the length of your course plus one gift year.

Both of my two have DSA accommodations but attendance for science based courses is a big thing. I am sympathetic about the female issues. My dd has adenomyosis and it is very difficult.

Is she doing a health science course where attendance is compulsory as maybe if she has missed too many lectures, passing the exams would not be enough as she would have to have been physically present in lectures, submitting assignments, attending placements and passing exams to pass the year.

Whatever the course is are they giving her an option of redoing this academic year due to the health issues? If that were the case I suppose it would be best to stop this year now and try and minimise expenditure on halls, fees etc as your dd will only have four years of higher education funding/loans I think.

It sounds as though she was misadvised about the foundation year counting as year 1.

The other bit I can't quite follow is whether your dd wants to continue with her current degree or start a new one?

So part of DD’s current disability is physical? I wasn’t interested in details, OP, just in how her health is affecting her academics.

It is difficult to offer mitigation or support for prolonged absences. Solutions that look good at first don’t usually work well, except for time off to resolve the problem. Is there any chance of resolving DD’s physical condition during a break from uni and returning pain free? This isn’t throwing in the towel, it is levelling the playing field! All the difference in the world.

I am sorry to hear that you need a biopsy. If you will be needing treatment, how will yhat affect DD? What you are describing is all familiar to the academic leads and Student Support Team.

This break is starting to sound like a good idea. Your health, and any support you need from DD, will become clearer. Perhaps she can start to resolve some of her own issues. When she goes back she will be on more of a level playing field.

I am not asking you to answer questions about your health publicly, OP! But if you may be needing DD for upcoming support it is best to plan now for that.

Mitigating Circumstances panels are pretty good at finding solutions for well defined problems no matter how complex. It is a different story when one problem always seems to be followed by a different one.

@pineisland not a health science degree. Not nursing.

If a course isn’t suitable for a disabled student, there should be an assessment prior to starting the course. If they accept a disabled student on the course, then they must make reasonable adjustments to allow them to complete it. That’s the law.

OP, I would get disability services involved. If she could have completed the course without her disability, they need to understand what the issues are and explain how they will address them.

Right so.
starting in September 2023 she did a foundation year, where she did well
in September 2024 she started Year 1.

she has had absences - how much time off?
has she sat any exams or submitted any assessments yet? What were her grades? Did she fail any?

has she disclosed her disabilities and health issues to the uni? Is she getting any support?

what is her preferred outcome? Does she want to continue on this course or change?

if she has communication issues, are you sure she’s fully understood what she’s been told? Have you seen any emails?

The DD has an orator, @BoredZelda , and this usually requires the involvement of disability services.

It isn’t clear why DD feels let down. I infer it is to do with her physical issues but OP hasn’t confirmed that, nor what help has been requested or could reasonably be expected.

Prolonged absences can be very difficult to mitigate fairly.

Realistically universities really don't want to lose students, and it's the final resort after other options have been discussed. But this sounds more like a break in studies/interruption and a reset, which could work for her as it sounds like she needs a break.

What adjustments does she want?

She wants to return in September.
It may be to the same subject or something different more aligned with her A levels.

We had further information this morning. If she withdraws on health grounds she gets her fees back. If she carries on she runs the risk of failing and having to pay the year. She commutes. The university is local to us. No halls.

Has the uni agreed?

This has only been discussed this morning @poetryandwine

It sounds like there is a big financial advantage in withdrawing on health grounds and starting year 1 in September. Would she pass year 1 if she just had a go at the forthcoming exams? If so may be worth doing that. However if she missed loads of the course this year and no hope of passing starting year 1 in September in a different subject more akin to her A levels might be wise.

My oldest son did not get some work in on time in year 3 of his degree - I think it was his dissertation plan that was late. We thought he could easily make up the lost time, he appealed and lost and had to withdraw after term 1 of year 3 and then did his year 3 the year after and all was well in the end.

Sorry, OP. Didn’t mean to push.

@Xenia makes an important point. When the uni suggests a (hopefully temporary) withdrawal it can be a very difficult thing to hear, but in the grand scheme of things it need be no more than a minor detour.

I too am an academic who has sat on Mit Circs panels and what you have described sounds like a second chance. At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I just want to emphasise that if DD withdraws now as I rather hope she will ( in her own best interests), it is crucial to plan for her support and yours, to solve as many issues as you both can in her break and make a plan to cope with the others. And not to rush back. Taking the time she needs to get things right and give herself the headspace to devote to her studies is the most intelligent thing she can do.

Best wishes to you both

PS Very worst case, that FY mark will give DD other options. But I don’t think it will come to that.

Courses can change as they go along - a module with no presentations might be withdrawn due to staffing levels and substituted with a module with compulsory presentations, the staff or student numbers might change so students have to do work in pairs, or an external accrediting body might include a new benchmark that involves knowing how to do a particular lab task that can only be done in groups. It's completely impossible to tell a student at the start of the course exactly what they will be doing in every single module they might possibly take in every year of their degree course - and many things that students think are helpful are actually the opposite (students miss out on education if they never do any presentations, trigger warnings make students more anxious not less, etc. etc.)

Adjustments that are made are supposed to be REASONABLE not every single adjustment that every student wants. If medical students are learning to take a history, and students say they have (since their first year) developed an anxiety disorder that prevents them from working in pairs, they cannot learn to take a history, so how can they study medicine? More than half of our students with disabilities only find out (or only request accommodations) during their degree.

Our disabilities office said that students could request to go over the lab material before each lab. I teach 4 one-hour labs of 50 each every week. Even with 5 students per group wanting an individual briefing, I can't spend an hour each with 20 students per week doing individual work. So we are telling them we can't provide that accommodation.

I'd also like to know what adjustments your DD wants @BuntyFayreweather - some might be counterproductive - the example of wanting all your assessments to have extensions is one our students commonly ask for but we try to avoid.

She has a meeting tomorrow and I think her plan is to withdraw and try again in September.
She has a speech disability and doesn't believe she can to do the verbal presentations. She has been in crisis since my diagnosis. She has similar gynaecological issues to me but not cancer. Frightening for us both.
It is not unusual for people in her field of interest and study to be ND. She isn't. She is interested in research and wouldnt interact that much with people. It's a real shame but I don't think she can cope with failing. She's been at the hospital on her own for her appointments as I couldn't walk before my surgery.
I do appreciate all the advice.

If she can reframe it as not failing, but taking some time to get well and figure out what she wants to do, that might help. Best of luck to you both with this and your health.

Research is extremely interaction-heavy I'm afraid. We adjust presentations for those who need it so they are at first in small groups or online, and then progress on. I even had one student with a throat infection use a text to talk tool. But you can't be a scientist without doing presentations or interacting with people.

I would second everything @poetryandwine says about the value of taking a break - intercalation or interruption or leave of absence (different universities call it different things). I have been an HoD where we've required students to take a leave of absence and it has made all the difference.

Sometimes students see it as failure; it really isn't. We want students to succeed, and this is one tool in our toolkit we have which can be transformative when other things have been tried. It sounds like your DD needs a bit more time to mature.

But I would also second what @worstofbothworlds has been saying about reasonable adjustments & disabilities. Sometimes, what a student thinks she needs is actually undermining her actual learning & education.

A research career will require speaking, just as much as any career in knowledge work, frankly. So your DD might think about ways of using support - eg someone to speak for her, or maybe pre-recording ? Rather than the flat "can't do it" as the skill & ability to communicate are essential in most graduate/professional jobs.

So maybe at university, she could seek support to work out the way she can effectively communicate and do her verbal assessments. Do them her way, rather than not at all.

Adjustments & accommodations must be 'reasonable.' I work in a discipline where collaboration, group work, and effective communication, are national benchmarks & requirements of the degree. Our students cannot not do these sorts of assessments. But there are many ways to communicate effectively.

@LittleBigHead thank your for insight.

I'm sorry I'm being vague about her subject but she has asked me not to say. Her Bsc is science /medical.

She had huge support at her first university but she wanted a closer, bigger university. That has been a success, she drives or takes the cheap bus. It's not the university being wrong she has missed too much in terms of attendance.
I do understand more today about the impact. She was very upset yesterday.

She was expelled once for uniform infringement (overturned) and I think she probably switched off when discussing leaving. She had an awful bullying secondary school so she worked out a way to leave! At least she's not shouting today. She's baking.

I think I'm getting old. In my day you got sent down and that was that.

Hi OP

There is some valuable info and some misinformation on this thread. Listen to @worstofbothworlds @LittleBigHead and other academics. I'm an academic and former HoD.

So it sounds like your daughter could never have gone into Y2/ L5. That only happens in really exceptional circs. This is because to earn a degree you usually need to have passed a certain no of credits so you cannot skip a year as then you would miss those credits.

Typically tuition fees are paid in tranches, e.g. Oct Mar etc. In a former role, I would advise students to suspend or withdraw if they were unlikely to pass as that was in their best interests, and part of my advice would be based on their tuition fee liability.

As for reasonable adjustments - many students do not declare their disabilities upon application so assessing them all and putting in place RAs is not remotely possible. We encourage students to disclose but we cannot make them. Research by UCAS shows that up to 50% of students with diagnosed mental health issues do not disclose to their institution before arriving.

Then it is a question of whether the adjustments are reasonable. Some are, some aren't. It doesn't matter if presentations are only a small part of the assessment landscape if they are testing core skills. What CAN typically be done is making adjustments to how the presentation is delivered. I once had a student with selective mutism narrate a voiceover to an animated PowerPoint and play that to the class for her pres. I have also done closed shop presentations with only staff as audience members. But we don't just say skip the presentation.

OP in short, I would encourage your DD to take a break, spend 6 mos getting as well as she can / make progress with your health issues, and return fresh in Sept with less academic, health and financial pressure.

If that prospect upsets her so much that she will drop out completely and not return, then very gently, she is not right now in the right headspace to do a degree.

@JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff thank you.

I know she enjoys her time at university but her illness has been pretty bad. Hospital admissions.
She did declare her registered disabilities. She had SEMH due to trauma when she was younger, it wasn't hidden. I'm surprised by your knowledge of selective Mutism, that's rare. The issue is she hasn't done enough work to pass.