Law - in this situation, higher or lower-performing uni?

[Explodingdreams]

DD is in Year 12 and has begun to think that she might like to study law at university. She’s studying English Lit, History and Politics at A Level, and what she really likes is analysing an argument or situation and finding the flaws and loopholes in it. She also, in her own words, likes ‘putting things in order in the right place’. She’s had a look at the LNAT practice test and it’s very much her kind of thing. The essay questions are the kind of ‘philosophical discussions’ we often stumble into while driving in the car or having dinner.

The thing is: she’s not at all interested in the idea of mock trials and courtroom drama, which is what a lot of the Sixth Form law club stuff, and the uni ‘marketing material’ seems to focus on. We’ve got family members and friends who are lawyers and very few of them go to court at all. Some are in-house with big organizations, some work in regulatory and compliance areas for government, that kind of thing. So we know that it’s possible to work ‘in law’, but to avoid the ‘performance’ side. In as much as she has any idea right now, she doesn’t think she would want to try to practise as a lawyer at all, in fact – she’d just like to study it at uni and use it for something analytical/regulatory afterwards.

But how does that relate to, say, choosing a uni to study at? I’ve always advised her to try for the uni with the highest offer that she can meet, so that her peers are likely to be at a similar academic level. Her grades are probably Russell Group, but probably not Oxbridge (which is a shame, because the Oxford law course looks right up her street). However, the top unis for law are clearly aiming to take people who are very driven, in terms of taking part in mock trials, visiting courts, joining the school debating team, etc. And that’s just not her thing. It would be a bit like enjoying studying English Lit, but having to throw yourself into ‘acting in plays’ in order to get a place to study it at uni. I wouldn’t expect her to suddenly become very keen on competing to secure internships and placements (or whatever you do in law) during her time at uni either. Essentially, she wants to study law – but not necessarily to ‘live it’!

Would it therefore be better for her to look at less high-flying unis? That seems a shame – she could probably get into some of the ‘top law unis’ for another subject. But I’m concerned that if she decided, e.g. to try for Durham for law, she’d have to spend the next year living a bit of a lie, pretending to be very keen on the performance side of law, just to be able to put that in a personal statement, etc. And that that situation might then continue at uni!

Any advice very welcome!

I'd suggest she does a degree in something else and then if she decides at the end that she is keen to become a lawyer then she can always do an extra year at law school to convert after she has obtained her undergraduate degree.

Whilst most law degrees are very much focussed on traditional academic learning with most mooting etc being done on an extra curricular basis, much of the content of a law degree is along the lines of "this is what the law is" rather than engaging in debate about whether that is what the law ought to be. It doesn't really matter whether a student thinks the law is right or wrong. The purpose of the degree is to teach them what the law "is".

Typically students will have a lecture teaching the basics of a particular area and going over the key cases and legislation and will then apply this to scenarios during seminars and tutorials. However, in the vast majority of law degrees there will be a requirement to engage in public speaking etc and so it's not really a degree for those who dislike the "performance". Drama is actually nowadays more and more thought of as a good A Level choice for those who are interested in law since it combines english lit style essay writing and analysis with public speaking and performance.

I'd suggest that she perhaps looks at philosophy and ethics type degrees or perhaps politics if she is more interested in the consideration of whether something is right or wrong.

She can do a law degree and qualify as a solicitor while avoiding most (but not all) advocacy. Having said that, you never know what you might like and be good at until you try, so she shouldn’t have a closed mind. Plenty of fabulous advocacy is quiet persuasion not showmanship (and indeed much of it is written). She sounds like she would be suited to the law and is attracted by a law degree, so don’t let concerns about forced mooting out her off. It’s almost all optional. I think she should just aim at the good Russell groups (lots of threads on here discussing different departments) and choose the one where she likes the look of the course and options, and is in a place she wants to spend 3 years. Then ideally try and get a first!

I would reiterate a pp, law degrees have barely enough time to give the student a full scope of the law let alone discussing philosophical questions around the rights and wrongs of the law or society in which it operates. I loved my law studies but maybe an undergraduate philosophy degree followed by law would make sense.
Also it is entirely possible to avoid mooting. I did (Russell Group uni)

I studied Law at KCL and when down the Solicitor route afterwards. Didn’t take part in any mock trials / debating etc. Get her to have a look at the module options at the different unis for second and third year - I picked moral philosophy and criminology for example which were very complementary to some of the more legislation focussed options like property / company law.

I did law at Cambridge and never did any mock Trials / mooting and have done OK!! Honestly not something you need to even consider in choosing the right Uni in my view. Much more important is to have a realistic view on what working in the law entails - visit courts, find work experience, read websites like RollonFriday. You need to REALLY want it as it’s a brutal industry to get into and maintain a career

She could look for work experience in the fields she would actually be interested in working in, perhaps?

I did law at Uni of Nottingham with no intention of becoming a solicitor, took part in no moots or other similar activities. I’d think those were more for aspiring barristers than solicitors (and people who spent less time in the SU than I did!).

I later realised I would like to qualify as a solicitor but I have still never taken part in a moot, I have done the bare minimum of “performance” necessary to get through the qualifications!

She should go the highest flying university her A Level grades will admit her to.

Once she’s there she can find her own way.

Your OP is full of surmises and stereotyped assumptions @Explodingdreams Don’t let these unrealities limit your DD’s possibilities.

Ha, I don't even really know what mooting is! (But I can guess.) Yes, I'm making all kinds of surmises and assumptions, and no doubt working with 'unrealities' - we haven't got much else to go on at present, hence starting this thread!

I think the most important point really is that she's interested in law as a theoretical concept. It sounds to her like something she could get her teeth into. But she has no interest (at present) in law as a career. She might well look at something like the Civil Service/local government, or working as an analyst of some kind. (Or literally anything else at this point, who knows.)

In reality, she knows that she's going to need a degree in something - and this appeals as a degree. But she's not likely to spend the next year visiting courts or taking part in debating competitions - and therefore, does that limit her chances for applying to higher-ranked unis, if all the other candidates are throwing themselves into this kind of stuff?

@LittleBigHead the thing is, she could probably go to a high-ranking uni fairly easily for, say, History or Politics. But maybe not for Law?

@MaggieBsBoat I think a Philosophy degree might appeal - but she's aware that there would be very few contact hours, so potentially quite a lonely experience - and given the financial pressures universities are under, I do wonder whether Philosophy degrees will survive in many places.

LSE leans heavily towards jurisprudence rather than the showy practice of law stuff. Worked well for my DC who was very similar to the way you describe your DD.

Between 10-14 contact hours a week is common to most degree subjects nowadays. Including law.

It’s also the case that in todays competitive HE sector most law courses will want to give opportunities for mooting and hold mock trials since they want their course to be seen by their customers (the students) as fun and engaging with a focus on some practical skills rather than purely academic.

it’s very different to when I studied law 30 years ago

If she wants a career in law she should go for the best uni she can get into, simply because law is so popular / competitive these days.

Get her to have a look into PPE degrees

I didn't think that you need to do any of that to become a solicitor. However it seems a bit of a wast to do law if you can't see yourself working as a lawyer. what other things is she interested in?

Would she consider joint honours with another subject? DD is doing business with law at Exeter, and has really enjoyed her course.

@Ciri really helpful stuff to know, thank you.
@LoserWinner that sounds like a great course too, but I fear her GCSEs might not have been good enough (they seem to be asking quite a lot there).
And @AelinAG I didn't know anywhere outside of Oxford offered PPE, so that's also a good tip.

She's going to do a bit more exploring of it all over the weekend. But I'm beginning to think that her hunch (and mine) might be right. For a high-ranking uni for law, it looks like she's going to have to embrace the 'performance' aspect to some degree if she wants to stand a chance of getting in. Even if she has no desire to 'perform' afterwards. But who knows, she might end up loving that bit too.

DD2 is in her third year doing Law, and while she does do mooting, that is very much extracurricular - typically they only have 30 or 40 students enter the mooting competitions out of a cohort of 300+ a year! So your DD would likely be in the majority if she never got involved with it. (As an aside, being a successful mooter is more about creating a strong case than ‘performing’.) I don’t think DD has been to a courthouse or done any debating as part of the actual course. The odd group presentation, but that’s normal for pretty much any subject.

I would echo other PPs and suggest she applies to the best unis she can. She can always add a couple of lower-tier unis to her application as insurance.

And only about 50% of law students end up going into law as a career. It’s an interesting and academically rigorous subject in itself!

There simply aren’t the jobs for half the law students to work in law. Particularly since lots now study law with grades that are too low to ever get them a job in the profession.