Bristol or Edinburgh for History of Art

[MarmaladeGinger]

DC has offers (same grade requirements) from both Bristol and Edinburgh to study History of Art. Has done a list of pros and cons for both unis and read about the course contents at each. We live in South England, so one obviously easier to reach, although given current reliability and cost of train fares a flight to Scotland often proves cheaper and quicker! Does anyone have any knowledge of the History of Art departments and reputations at either uni? Any insight to assist their decision would be much appreciated.

I’m sorry I can’t comment on the best course but I would be wary of Bristol if looking to use student accommodation. Last year students were housed in Portishead and is very expensive. Edinburgh has so much going for it and is easily accessible travel wise.

I have no clue about history of art, but DD is at Bristol and loves it. I’m astounded at how fab I think the city and the university is as well. This year she’s studying abroad and that has also been fantastic.
Yes accommodation is very expensive, but a friend at Edinburgh is paying the same if not a bit more.
Personally, I’d find it hard studying alongside Scottish students knowing that they were studying for free and I wasn’t (but that’s very personal opinion).

Well don’t just make things up to then shoot them down. Where did I “mention York as having greater access to art than Bristol”? I didn’t.

York gets into my top 8 as it has a better cadre of professors and a really good approach to teaching about curation which I think produces more employable grads than places like Bristol, Exeter, Warwick which I would not choose for anyone wishing seriously to study history of Art.

The cuts of 10% pa for the foreseeable or £140M pa announced by the VC at Edinburgh, commencing in the autumn, are likely to have a similar impact. Edinburgh has a lot of income from external grants and there is some thinking that protecting this will be a priority. (I am not defending this)

Therefore Student Services and disciplines that don’t bring in the dosh are expected to feel pain.

@LailaDelaila

I hadn’t actually looked to see if Newcastle was still running HofA. However my main point was that a masters at The Courtauld is probably more valuable than the first degree. Therefore all this angst about where has art galleries is spurious. St Andrews has been mentioned - what do they really have? DDs friend is a specialist in contemporary art. The undergrad degrees are surely general and not honing your skills in a particular area of art. Access to London is probably more important.

I also have to admit I was wrong. She got her MA from the Sothebys Institute of Art. Also did post grad internships with Philips and Christie’s as well as working in the summer at other contemporary art galleries. So all things are possible from a not top 10 university and not in London or Scotland! Of course not all students want to work for auction houses either!

Therefore I don’t believe going to Bristol will make one iota of difference to anything if she can get her ducks in a row and get relevant internships and develop her specific area of interest.

@Delphigirl I agree with everything you have written. There are some amazingly uninformed posters on this thread with strong wrong opinions...

Thanks @ceramiq. It is frustrating when those voices drown out those who do actually know their arse from their elbow but such is the mumsnet way it appears.

@Ceramiq. You did start off by saying anyone who didn’t go to the Courtauld was wasting their time and money?!! (In effect). It doesn’t matter one jot about the Courtauld because dd hasn’t applied there! You have not given sensible advice based on the OP’s question. Most jobs any DC go for where there’s a decent career trajectory will not just be about undergrad degree. The DD can upgrade with a MA and internships.

If you knew anything at all about HoA, you would have the statistics for undergraduate applications and know that it is very unusual indeed for someone who has applied for HoA at Edinburgh not to have applied to the Courtauld. Hence my surprise. Bristol is not a good university for HoA and, unless you view a Humanities degree as finishing school rather than serious education (and I realise that you do), Edinburgh is hands down a better choice for HoA than Bristol.

The comp uni guide says that’s not true and again DD didn’t want Courtauld. Not everyone thinks like you and you continually discount the MA! That’s when jobs come sharply into focus.

I think she needs to look at a combination of both factors - degree and place.

If she wants to work in the traditional HofA world - eg big auction house internships, she will likely need an MA in HofA (and another language), so the UG almost doesn't matter. Indeed, if she wants to work in the primary art market, Bristol (and I'm sure Edinburgh) tick the box for 'posh' unis where she will find alumni (not necessarily HofA) who will recognise her journey.

For sure, UEA for eg has an amazing collection. But is she interested in a more dynamic practice? For example, Bristol HofA curator module has ties with traditional galleries such as the RWA but also street art, community spaces, National Trust properties etc, so a 'hands on' and eclectic approach to accessing art.

As a straw poll of DD's particular peers from Bristol, two are working in 'traditional' art spaces (one in a gallery and one in an artist's studio), at least three have gone into the civil service. DD actually went into finance. (Finance and art are very happy bedfellows!)

The main takeaway is that the course was good, but the city was even better and her student experience was happy and fulfilling, leading to great contacts and a confidence going out in the world. The graduate careers service is also very proactive.

Bottom line is, you could be on the most prestigious course in the world, but if your environment isn't right, it's not going to fly, so she should think about where she wants to live for the next three years.

I have name changed for this (obviously!) becuase this is seriously outing, but I can’t believe some of the rubbish on this thread! I am an art historian who has held curatorial roles in national museums and is currently doing a DPhil at Oxford - in the art history department (which does still exist for both undergrads and graduate students - someone wasn’t sure upthread).
I did my undergrad at Bristol (History but with HoA modules) and had an amazing time, though a long time ago now! It’s department is highly regarded in academic terms.
I then did my masters at the Courtauld which was fantastic and set me on my way to my later career. But it is rubbish to say that the undergrads have an experience that is in any way comparable to studying in a major university like Bristol/Edinburgh (dropping out because it is too social?? ). The academics are excellent of course but the experience is so much narrower (and expensive!). And the OP’s daughter hasn’t applied there anyway!
Anyone looking to make a serious career in the art world (and sadly I would seriously caution anyone trying to start out now given the extreme precarity and incredibly low pay) can always go there at Masters level anyway.
I don’t know anything about the department at Edinburgh (though its academic reputation is good) but it’s a wonderful city! I might be a bit nervous about the cuts but I’d be very surprised if the department shut completely and I wouldn’t say that Bristol would be any more or less safe on that anyway given the dire situation in humanities at the moment.
TL;DR
I don’t think s/he can really go wrong with either choice frankly (and has made a great choice of subject in spite of my doom and gloom on careers!)

Bottom line is, you could be on the most prestigious course in the world, but if your environment isn't right, it's not going to fly, so she should think about where she wants to live for the next three years.

Absolutely!

@Delphigirl
One post you said this:
"I’ve given you my top 4. I’d put St Andrews, Glasgow, York and probably Birmingham"

and the next you mentioned these cities having "proper resources on their doorstep"

So logically, following your posts, you're saying York has proper resources to Art galleries, but I don't think that's the case.

Maybe its a case of getting arses and elbows mixed up.

An MA is extra money which not all DC can find. Surely it is better to acquire the skills you require on your undergraduate degree rather than treating it like a finishing school and only focusing on career-related academics at Masters and beyond? The Courtauld MA programme is very large and the intake extremely heterogeneous so it wise to proceed with great caution.

I think the key also is to look at the modules offered (and make sure they are running for your year of entry).

You want to have at least two optionals that float your boat, other than your core modules. That way, if one is full, you will likely get the other.

The modules are key because if a) they interest you and b) you get on/form a relationship with your tutor, that is your reference and your research focus. Just one great module can make the whole degree, and the future benefits, worthwhile.

So for eg, DD's was the curatorial. From there she gained work experience, tailored her cv to the skills she gained on that module, formed relationships with outside curators, and was able to talk about working with stakeholders and decision makers at interview, etc.

@LailaDelaila. Ditto St Andrews.

@Ceramiq. I think for top jobs you need a MA. Yes it costs but there’s an over supply of grads. I’d get a specialism and go for it. Other grads have to! Many scientists do. I do not see why working in art is any different.

I don't disagree that you need an MA for better career prospects. However, undergraduate degree does matter (a lot), as does the networking done during the undergraduate degree. At London universities like LSE or the Courtauld the networking possibilities are out of this world compared to provincial universities - student societies are super active and it's not hard at all to get big names to come to talk to students or to organise events in companies.

At times on this thread you would think the best jobs are only available to those who do undergrad in London. That’s simply not true. LSE for HofA? Goldsmiths possibly.

LSE Art Business Society attracts the very best speakers.

So what? She’s not applied to LSE and isn’t intending to be in London for undergrad. Other universities, it might surprise you, have speakers too! If money is not an issue, short courses are also a great way of getting an insight into areas of interest. My DD did a couple just for pleasure.

Bristol isn't a target university for the art world so no, they don't attract great speakers nor is it easy to get guided tours for society groups at major employers. LSE and the Courtauld are both targets.

@Ceramiq. I think that theory was debunked ages ago! As I said, DDs friend has a degree from Newcastle. You are not stopped from doing anything if you get your ducks in a row.

The planned cuts at Edinburgh are £140M total over an 18 month period, not per annum. Roughly equivalent to 1 month running costs. There will be changes and these are preventative to ensure the uni does not go into deficit. They will have a big impact, of course, but I expect popular, well regarded courses will be safe. There is a lot they can save elsewhere and won’t cut off nose to spite face.
Also, research costs University’s money. Yes, I agree they will want to safeguard reputation and those that have great research but this is all discipline specific and not really only about bringing in big grants.
Popular courses will stay and humanities brings in cash from teaching. Overall it is complex, I would eat my hat if they closed ECA but don’t know specifics about HoA course.

I agree the VC has stated that the deficit is £140M over 18 months. However the cuts do seem to be £140M pa. The most recent statement a quick search turns up to confirm this is in an online article by Paul Dobson in The Ferret on 14 March.