St Andrew’s Offer - Confused!

[StAndrewsConfusion]

Have name changed for this, as details are outing and don’t want it connected to other posts of mine.

DD has received an offer from St Andrews for September. She applied for a joint course, one subject is her absolute passion and the other is one she wanted to study at A level but wasn’t able to due to timetabling issues. She really liked the idea of picking it up to study again and the course she applied for doesn’t require an A level in that subject.

The offer she has received is for the second (not her passion) subject only, not the joint course she applied for. We’re a bit bemused by this and were wondering if anyone has any ideas why they might have done this? None of her A level subjects are connected to the offer subject at all.

She really loved St Andrews on the open day, and is delighted to have an offer. It is her first choice. We think in the first year she has to also study two other subjects, so we figured she could choose courses from her ‘passion’ subject. She won’t want to give that up completely.

Her other Uni choices were for her passion subject only, apart from one other, which runs a similar course as St Andrews where you don’t need A level in the second subject. It meant her personal statement was really tricky, but it must have been ok, as she has offers for all of them. St Andrews is actually one of the lowest offers!

Hope that all makes sense!
Does anyone have any advice or opinion on any of this, we’d really appreciate it?

If the offer is confusing, I would suggest getting in touch with them and asking them to clarify.

Congratulation to your DD on her offers!

I wonder if the course she really would have liked at St Andrews only has a small amount of places and is oversubscribed? It sounds like they like her application and couldn't offer her a place on her first choice, but assume she has an interest in the second subject, so offered that instead. As the previous poster says, you could always give admissions a quick call to clarify.

It's a good plan around choosing modules from the passion subject - but maybe check that they would definitely be available.

I guess the choice is whether St Andrews as a University, is better than the passion subject at a different University, and whether the subjects in question have a consequence on future careers.

It sounds like she has great choices though.

@Cyclistmumgrandma Well, yes, we will do that. DD is also going to talk to her 6th form team. I just wondered if anyone on here had any experience of anything similar.

My daughter also has an offer for St Andrews but not in the same predicament as yours. She likely won’t be accepting it because she was put off by the fact that there is a requirement to study other subjects in Year 1, and she would prefer to exclusively study her subject of choice. Could it be that your daughter will be offered the opportunity to select her passion subject as one of these options but isn’t required to state this until September?

As above, it will very likely be because they have strict quotas of how many offers they are allowed to make, especially if the two subjects are in different schools. It is a small university, and each school will have its own quota for offers. Are you able to say what the subjects are? Depending on what the passion subject is, she might be able to take all the core modules in it and change her programme at the end of the first year.

There is a wide range of modules they can choose at St Andrews - my scientist did an English module for example. But they can’t tell you what’s avail until they start I think due to final student numbers etc

someone might not accept their place which might free up a place on her preferred course. Worth a call to make sure she is ‘reserve’ for that if she can?

Also as it’s a 4 year course it feels like there might be a chance to move later on. But no guarantees of course

There would only be a chance to move later on if OP's DD did the all core modules and passed them. So for example if your DC had taken two English modules instead of just one and decided they liked English better, they could have switched to an English degree and dropped the science altogether. So it's not so much about it being a 4 year course, more about being able to get onto the relevant modules in the first year.

@StAndrewsConfusion for your DD, it'll really depend what the subjects are, because if it's something that's typically oversubscribed (e.g. International Relations) or for which there are lots of core modules, labs etc. there would be no guarantee that she could enrol on the relevant modules. But if it's something like English or French and she has the relevant qualifications, she would be able to just take those modules and change her degree intention later if she still wants to.

Former admissions tutor here. @Pleasestopthebunfight has suggested the most likely scenario. I strongly agree with the suggestions that DD contact the admissions team with any questions. However, email is generally the way to go. Anyone she reaches will route her query to the appropriate person. If she decides being at St A is the most important thing, I agree with PP that enquiring about a wait list fir her first choice is a great idea.

Is she planning for Y1 entry? If so, the Scottish system does often give opportunity for successful students to change programmes at the beginning of Y2, but this cannot be guaranteed. I think DD should only Firm St A if she is comfortable with the conditions that can be offered to her now.

Best wishes to her

Thank you everyone for your replies and advice. I need to go through them properly, but thought I would add some more info.
The subjects are Maths (passion) and German (2nd subject). She's been accepted for German. Her A levels are maths, further maths, chemistry and physics (predicted A star A A star A star in that order).
Do you think it makes any difference, knowing the subjects?
She would look to do whatever maths modules she could and keep them up for as long as possible...

Okay, so I have some experience of Scottish universities, but please don't take this as gospel! Looking at their website at the programme requirements for joint honours German and Maths, it looks like it should be possible. Maths students either just have one compulsory module in the second semester (if they get the relevant grades) or they do an extra introductory module in the first semester if they miss the required A level grade. What your DD needs to know is whether there is typically space on the maths modules (MT1002, MT1001 if needed) for students of other subjects who have the prerequisites. She can find that out by contacting a subhonours advisor in the School of Mathematics. If they don't have a cap on numbers on the module (this is not the same as capping the number of students on the course), it's very likely she can enrol, do all the compulsory modules, and change her degree programme at the end of the first year to the one she originally applied for, if she still wants to. She'd want to discuss this with academic advisors from both departments, ideally, before committing herself.

You really need to speak to admissions and find out the likelihood of getting onto maths in Year 1. Some subjects are massively oversubscribed and you could find that she is not able to get on and would therefore no longer be doing maths at all.

Admissions might be able to help, but I think in this situation OP's daughter should also try and get in touch with a subhonours advisor for maths. She can find out who they are on the university website. What she needs to know is: is there normally a cap on numbers of (suitably qualified) students taking MT1002; what proportion of students on the module are not mathematics students.

Ah ok that seems tough as maths is SO popular.

in that case if it were my dd I’d advise do maths somewhere else and if she gets stellar grades and wants to apply again to St Andrews, decide in aug.

There's such a huge difference in career options with the two subjects so I'd look for a place for Maths and do German if the opportunity presents itself later.

I went to St Andrews. If she incorporates her passion subject in year one, she can ask for that to become her main subject (best to ask in the final term of year one.)

Oh, Maths is a tough one OP.

I am in STEM and DH is a Maths professor. We are in England and both have a certain amount of experience with students rejected by Oxbridge.

For 2025 St A is ranked 5th, right behind the COWI institutions, for undergraduate Maths, so it is hugely competitive. I think @ZacharinaQuack ’s post of 15.51 about talking to a subhonours adviser (I think in England this would be a degree programme leader or adviser) is excellent. Again, though, email is usually the best way to connect with academics and it is always important to get any promises in writing.

If DD cannot get the reassurance she needs, I don’t envy her choice. My sense is that often those with a passion for Maths may feel they are losing a piece of themselves if they give it up. I would hate for DD to put herself through this if her passion runs deep. Furthermore, Maths graduates are high earners: we saw on a recent thread that they come about third, after doctors and mechanical engineers, for starting salaries. So the field offers a great combination.

If St A cannot offer DD what she wants now, what about going elsewhere for a BSc and applying to St A for an MSc afterwards?

Thank you all for your replies, some really great advice. DD has read them too, and is really grateful for your help.

It's really difficult. Maths is definitely her passion, and I know she wouldn't be happy not being able to study it at all.
We really need to look into the possibility of her continuing her maths studies, and then either swapping to the maths/German course, or just maths at the end of year 1.

I wonder if this might be more likely with her having studied FM, as I wouldn't think she would be behind the single maths students for a while (maybe?)

Her second choice is Edinburgh for just maths. The offer is higher than St Andrews (though definitely still achievable for her), so she might firm Edinburgh and put St Andrews as her insurance (which seems crazy!)

Still, a good dilemma to have, I suppose!

Maths is an extremely popular subject at university while German is extremely unpopular and universities scrabble around to recruit decent students (even at Oxford). However, a Maths with German degree is a very different course to a German degree and I am surprised that St Andrews is trying this on as an applicant for Maths with German is most unlikely to wish to do a single honours German degree instead.

I completely agree with @Ceramiq ’s excellent point above.

Also, OP, I am sorry to say that I have a rare thread below titled ‘PSA: Edinburgh’ about the swingeing cuts of 10% pa (from the current base) announced last week by their VC. He included the possibility of compulsory redundancies.

I think every aspect of UG life will be affected, because E has a huge amount of external research income they need to protect. there have been recent marking strikes at E and if these cuts are not partially reversed I think the coming disruption will likely be worse. The thread discusses things further.

As STEM subjects go Maths is relatively economical to deliver and I know some absolutely lovely academics in the SoM, including some great women, through DH. It is sad to be writing this.

OTOH Glasgow actually came tops in Scotland in the last UK research exercise (REF 2021) and Top 10 overall, and has high student satisfaction in Maths and overall (higher than E, not as high as St A which is outstanding).

I think the UKVI issue at G mentioned on my thread is being resolved. The university was a bit stupid to get so understaffed in the area of visa monitoring, etc, but they have agreed a plan with UKVI and are coming to the end of the 3 month improvement period. I think it will work out.

DD could postpone her decision, to see what happens in Edinburgh and Glasgow. Really sorry about this.

Personally, I’d think it was more important for her to do a Maths degree than go to St A to end up with a degree without maths in the title. Although she would probably (optional modules in choice of subject may not be guaranteed) get to do some maths, in the full degree it would be less. And vitally she wouldn’t have the degree in maths which opens doors.

Where else does she have offers from?

Def worth asking St A the Qs about wait list for Maths etc…..but I think I’d be forming somewhere else with Maths in the title.

Consider a scenario where she’d been simply rejected by St A. She then wouldn’t have considered a German single honours degree would she. Nor should she now in all likelihood.

I agree. She didn't want to do a German degree. Don't be influenced by the name. St Andrews as a name is not enough of a draw in itself to risk not being able to study the subject she has a passion for. A significant part of its high ranking is due to the royal connections and the fact that this attracts enormous numbers of US students.

Although I agree with the posters above that your DD should do a mathematics degree not a German one, I think she also needs to pay attention to the flexible degree structure at Scottish universities. PPs are probably wrong to say 'she might be able to do some mathematics but not as much as if she was doing the whole degree.' In fact, it's much more likely that if she gets to do any mathematics at all, she almost certainly can do the whole degree (unless she fails it).

I'm maybe a bit too invested in this now, but I've googled the programme requirements for mathematics at St Andrews and the course catalogue. I can see that in order to progress to second year maths (single or joint honours) you have to take and pass MT1002. There are no other compulsory modules for either degree. So she would be doing the same amount of maths (if she gets a space on the module) as any other maths student. This module runs twice, in both the first and second semesters, because students who get above a B in A level are allowed to do it straight away, and students who don't have to take MT1001 first. Once you have taken this and passed it, you are entitled to request a change of programme. Bascially, if you get into St Andrews, once you're in, they won't say no to changing your programme. After the first year, you can take anything you are qualified for. So what she needs to find out is whether there is a cap on numbers taking this module in either semester, and whether this cap is normally (or has ever been) reached. As @poetryandwine says, maths is fairly economical to teach. I'd say especially so in first year, when there will be huge lectures and it's not hard to squeeze extra people in. If you look up the module for next year, you can see who coordinates it. You could also go to an offer holder's day and try to speak to someone in person.

I agree with @ceramiq, it sounds like St A's are trying to make their German degree viable. (I work in a university so am familiar with this sort of strategy.) Unless DD is able to get a cast-iron guarantee that it would be possible to transfer to Maths/Maths with German, I wouldn't take this unless she is happy to do straight German.

So she's not doing German A-level but has been offered a place on a German degree course?