Any Oxbridge tutors here - Should DD bother applying for English at Cambs with these grades?

[indecision25]

Hi, I know it's still quite early days, but thinking ahead a bit. DD is in year 12. She is doing 4 A-levels in English Lit, Drama, Politics and Philosophy plus an EPQ (English related), plus LAMDA Grade 8. She is definitely capable of A star in all, but we'll see.

The problem is she is in a very high-performing independent school (probably within top 5 in U.K.). The school is quite STEM-focused and, at GCSE, DD lost her confidence in STEM because all her peers are top sets and she was in the lowest set for Sciences and Maths. In the context of her school, she 'flunked' Maths and Chemistry GCSE. Her grades were - 5x9s in English Lit, English Lang, Music, French, History, Drama, Philosophy, 2x8s in Physics and Biology and 2x7s in Maths and Chemistry.

Obviously these are hardly bad grades but, in her school, I think it's something like over 80% of grades are 8s and 9s so she would be contextualised against that.

My feeling is she shouldn't apply to Oxford because I know they use contextualised GCSEs to make the cut for interviews and she probably wouldn't get an interview, based on her school. However, I thought maybe she could have a go at Cambridge for English as they look more holistically and interview more people and might overlook the 7s and 8s as they're not subjects relevant to English anyway. Also, she would do well in an interview (I would think) and has quite a few 'super curricular things' like plays she has written, an essay competition prize (English) and she does a lot of drama. She really does love English (always has), reads avidly, and I think this would come across.

I do have some experience of Cambridge admissions as my elder DD has recently graduated. She did have 10 9s at GCSE, but 'only' 3 A-levels and, to be perfectly honest, her natural affinity or 'passion' for her subject was nothing like this younger DD. She was just more of an 'even profile' at GCSE,

Anyway, in the last week, one teacher has told her not to bother with Cambridge as her grades will let her down. On the other hand, her English teacher is saying she should definitely apply.

Are there any Cambridge admissions tutors on here who can give an honest steer as to whether her GCSEs (contextualised) will rule her out? All her 9s are essay subjects, but is it enough? I know people might say, Cambridge is only one of five choices, so just give it a go. But I know from experience it's a lot to go through if in reality, she'll be out at the first hurdle.

Any advice please and sorry if this is a ramble!

Not an admissions tutor, but absolutely don't need to worry about those GCSEs. Not even at Oxford (unless Medicine) but certainly not Cambridge where they interview almost all humanities applicants with suitable predicted A levels, and GCSEs play very little role after entrance tests, written work and interviews.

Also, I think Oxford score the top 8 GCSEs, so with 7x9, 1x8 she's near enough perfect. And they don't "downgrade" candidates for having gone to a high-achieving school, they uplift those from those who didn't.

Anyway, anecdotal but DS went to a high-achieving secondary, got 6x9, 2x8, 2x7 at GCSE, which was middle of the pack for there, and has just got a humanities Cambridge offer. Perfect GCSEs aren't a necessity (his 8s and 7s were also in Maths/Phys/Chem/Bio).

Not an admissions tutor, but my DC just had an offer from Cambridge. Not English but a humanities subject.

Her teachers sound very misguided to me which is really surprising if it's a top school. 🤔She has all A stars at GCSE apart from 7s in maths and chemistry - that's fine!

Oxbridge admissions look at everything - GCSE grades, A level predictions, performance at interview, written work and subject exams (if they do them).

Yes they'll consider the performance of the cohort she's coming from but if she's a great candidate, that doesn't mean she's ruled out if she's from a top performing independent school! For what it's worth my DC is from a similar school - the offer was a notch higher than their standard offer for that subject, which would be reflective of the background. That's fair because private school students have been given advantages over other impressive candidates.

It really sounds like she'd be fine to give it a go!

It's one choice. Even if she doesn't get it (and there's no reason you've given why she shouldn't), she's likely to be offered on her other choices.

I don’t know about Cambridge, I think they are the same but can’t say for sure, but Oxford ask for three A levels. They don’t care about any extra curricular stuff, it isn’t something they look at or factor in.
If your dd has excellent predicted grades for her A levels, and is passionate about her subject, then she should apply, absolutely.

Does she actually want to go, has she visited, considered whether the short terms would suit her?
If she wants to go out it down but make sure she understands how few applicants get to go and that lots of excellent candidates don’t end up there. In other words have a back up option that won’t leave her heartbroken.

DD is a Cambridge graduate.She had good but not perfect GCSEs. It was my impression that the tutors who did the interviews were looking for a passion for their subject and the ability to thrive in a particular kind of high pressure environment.

DD's school were very clear that it was almost impossible to predict which likely candidates would be offered places. Their advice was not to apply unless the student was fully prepared to accept that they may not get an offer and were willing and able to move forward with other plans if that happened.

Thanks very much for the perspectives. I guess our (hopeful) logic was that the 7s in maths and chemistry would matter if she was applying for Economics or Nat Sci, but as it's English, is it relevant? But then I also know that hundreds with perfect GCSEs are rejected every year. And the teacher saying not to bother made me wonder if it's a no go from the start. Now DD is saying she won't get in so no point. Normally, she is very chill, but I think it all seems a bit overwhelming, because all her friends seem to be international and going for the US unis and have advisors and this kind of thing.

My other DD applied successfully to C with two A star and an A predicted (went in to get three A stars), but she did have all 9s at GCSE. This was a more competitive degree subject though,

In a way, having had her sister there makes it worse because DD would love to go and knows the place, I'm also going to take her to see Edinburgh and St As and Durham and York soon, I think she would like those too, but she's worried about the weather mainly!

Yes we will definitely go to some open days.

I'm not an admissions tutor, but I do interview for Cambridge, and I am involved in the selection process. TBH, admissions tutors more oversee the whole process, it's the academics who interview who make the call.

I thought it could be useful to give some insight into our selection process. I have interviewed for two separate colleges, and the colleges also all communicate, so this is somewhat standardised.

1. Our selection process is fundamentally aimed at identifying people who will thrive at Cambridge. We are not necessarily looking for the absolute smartest students - sincerely, we're not. The Cambridge supervision system, and the level of independent study expected, and the speed of the course are all factors students need to contend with, which they may not elsewhere.

1. We invite to interview anyone who we reasonably believe could do well here. The barrier to interview is low, we mostly just eliminate from the pool anyone who is a certain "no" - wrong A-levels for the course, completely inappropriate grades, people with resits (but no extenuating circumstances) etc. Your daughter would almost certainly get an interview with 4 A*'s predicted.
2. The interview is essentially a 20 to 40 minute supervision. Students are expected to be able to turn up to a room, and engage with unseen material, and interact with academics. We are looking for people who express themselves well, ask questions, seem genuinely interested, have good subject knowledge from A-level etc. "Is the student teachable?". Students who clearly engage well, seem to learn and make progress, and benefit from this supervision, will get an offer. Students are scored out of 10, usually 10, 9 and 8 would be an offer, potentially a 7 depending on the year.
3. Students who do less well (7/ potentially a 6), perhaps slight edge cases, we would then look at flags on their profile. Note that a flag is extreme - you would not get a flag for simply attending a state school. Free school meals (household income hence <£16k), in the bottom 20% of schools nationally etc. It's possible that students with extreme personal circumstances may get a second look, and an offer for having got around a 6/10.

Your daughter will likely not get this "second look", but the vast majority of students do not. Each year, I interview around 24 students, and usually 1 or at most 2 have this second look.

If your daughter ends up getting a 6/10, it's unfortunate. However, our experience teaching shows that "unpolished" students can be polished, and with e.g. tutoring would easily be actually 8/10 or 9/10. If a student is given education at the top school in the country, and is still getting 5/10 or 6/10 on an interview, even at Cambridge, we can't polish them more - that is just their actual ability. It's not fair to admit them in this case.

I've been brief; I hope this makes sense. In short, your daughters grades will not be contextualised; but neither will most students.

Oxbridge tutor here. For my science subject I would definitely advise someone to apply with those grades. Some tutors will see a 7 at GCSE as a big negative, even in a completely unrelated subject. Other tutors won't be bothered at all.

@ThisRareRobin - Thankyou for all that. So are you saying that overall, it's pretty much the interview score that is the main deciding factor? Tutors are looking for who they think would get the most out of the tutorial system, basically.

Go for it. DD was at high performing grammar, got a 7 in Physics, 6 in FM but top grades in essay subjects. Did 3 A levels plus EPQ, now very happily at Cambridge studying English. Sounds like your DD can demonstrate the passion which is a big part of what they look for. If your DD is into drama the drama scene at Cambridge is also amazing mama complements am English degree very well, so many opportunities. Good luck to your DD.

Yes, exactly! You summarised that perfectly. There are some exceptions in the sciences and maths, as there is also usually an entrance exam which is weighted quite seriously also.

It's common for a student to have near-perfect grades, but they just don't communicate well in the interview. Behaviours such as getting defensive when they make mistakes, or being too hesitant to give things a go, or leaning too heavy on the interviewer to guide them. We would, in every case, pick a student with less perfect grades (regardless of school attended), but who had initiative, and took to direction and correction well.

When students perform identically (which is rare, especially as there is usually at least 2 interviews), then we would consider grades and flags. However, usually if we had to deliberate at this level, the student that ultimately wasn't selected would almost certainly get put in the Winter pool.

I'm an admissions tutor at Oxford in a fairly closed related subject. I think you might be right that Oxford is more preoccupied with GCSEs, but those grades would be fine with us, too! She'll get a slightly negative cGCSE score if she's at a top school (the expectation for the very best schools is 10 8s or 9s at GCSE). At a good but not top 50-100 school, she would probably end up with a net positive score with 8 8s or 9s.

Either way, this is one small part of an application and tutors are very keen to look at the whole applicant. (Equally, most of us are not convinced that an 8 and 9 are identical. I would personally prefer to see 9s in the directly related subjects). Passion for the subject is absolutely the most important thing. We have admitted people with 5s and 6s in some (unrelated) subjects when they are manifestly outstanding at what they want to study. I'm sure the same is true in reverse in maths and science.

At Oxford, in my subject at least, we interview about half of the candidates. Offers are made entirely on the basis of interview scores. The personal statement, subject test (if relevant), and GCSE results are only used to decide who to interview. We obviously have the full application in front of us during interviews and in discussions, but we would never question an outstanding performance at interview on the basis of the application materials. Everyone we interview is good enough on paper to be admitted. The only caveat is that candidates who are better than most on paper are more likely to have interviews at second and third colleges, and this slightly improves their chances of getting a place at the university as a whole.

Feedback from our head of 6th for a student last year who failed to secure an interview at Oxford was simply that his Alevel predictions weren't all A* Nothing to do with his GCSEs. My son started at Oxford in Oct - he has a grade 4 and 2 grade 5s amongst his GCSE results BUT his predicted grades on UCAS for A-level were 3xA*. Which were enough to get him the interview - just like a mini tutorial as explained by someone else. Other kids in his school with far better GCSEs, same predictions couldn't cope with the 'talk me through your thinking' tutorial approach of the interview and didn't get offers. Son did carefully research all the data available on colleges mind you to look at number of applicants Vs number of offers made Vs numbers of places for his subject. Not all subjects/colleges are equal in terms of numbers!

Our DS is in his last year at C. Had teacher assessed GCSE grades varying from 5-9 with an 8 in maths, moved 6th form to a better performing state school ( from state).

Was offered a place for Maths ( two A stars and an A for his A levels)and is thriving. Got an exhibition for tripos last year.

If you don't try you don't get. Enjoy the process, DS loved his interview supervision and is v lucky to have had the interviewer as his DoS for three years.

@ThisRareRobin the name not related to a college by any chance?

Thank you for all this. It's very interesting to hear the admissions approach. I can definitely say DD's main strength is engaging, listening and talking about her subject. She would love tutorials and thinking on her feet. There is an admissions exam for English, I think, so would need to look at that. But thanks again. I realise it's always a long shot, but maybe it's worth a go then.

It is one choice of 5. If she fancies it she should apply accepting it is one out of five possibilities
She won't stand any chance if she does not apply.
Go for it with open mind

At Cambridge, unlike Oxford, the test is not a decider. If you are invited for interview they will also put you in for the test. Do check though as DD went through the process in 2023 so it may have changed. They also ask for two examples of pre-submitted school work/essays. DD sent one Classical Civilisation essay and one English one. The one to ones are called supervisions. All those studying same subject at the college a tutorial (for DD thst is 7), then lectures are all mostly optional.

Just to say @indecision25 your DD sounds fab and should not listen to negative teachers. My DS had rather luke warm support from the yr 12/13 uni lead at his school following his gcse grades (5x 9, 2x 8, 2x 7, 2x6) but applied for Cambridge nonetheless and has received an offer.

His 9s - and the raw scores - reflected his absolute passion for his subjects and he carried that love for, and ability in, his degree subject through into A levels.
his PS, application and super curriculars show that very clearly as did his interviews I assume!

your DD should go for it and don’t be dissuaded otherwise!

Haha, actually, I chose one of the Mumsnet randomly generated names, but actually yes, it aligns with the main college I interview for! Bizarre coincidence I wouldn't have spotted.