Maths, Further Maths, English and Politics... what degrees are ruled out in/out?

[phyllidafosset]

My DD is struggling to know what she wants to do for A-Level (and beyond). She is certain she wants to do maths. She is also certain she wants to do politics.

Her other choice is currently between English, physics (she is looking at 9s in both), and economics.

I think she is almost certainly going to do further maths as well as maths, basically because she is considering economics/finance at Uni, and some of the top universities will expect it (even if they don't require it). It would open up anything mathematical.

My suggestion was that she shouldn't do economics, because I think (I may be wrong) that if she has maths and further maths, then she doesn't need economics for an economics degree (particularly with politics, because that is essay-based).

She doesn't think she wants to go down the science route (she has always found Physics easy but she also finds it boring). However, if she does Physics, it would leave her the possibility of doing science (if she changed her mind). If she just had politics, could she still get onto a social science degree if she wanted to? I'm think she could get onto Law? Is there anything else that she would excluded from? I think that something like Psychology would still consider her because she has the maths and a science (even if it isn't biology, which would be more obvious).

If she does English, then I guess it would open up more Humanities, but I'm not sure what else it would open up? Maybe journalism and similar things?

She prefers English, and I think she should do that if it is a clear preference. However, I don't know if she might discover she likes Physics more if it gets a bit more complex.

Is there anything I'm missing? Any thoughts/observations/advice?

Have a look here (if you scroll down there is a tool that you can use to put in combinations of subjects and see what degrees they might lead to)
https://www.theuniguide.co.uk/advice/a-level-choices/what-a-levels-do-you-need-for-the-degree-you-want-to-study

It's not possible to choose a combination of A Levels that keep all future options open. I'd suggest choosing a subject you will enjoy is important. I wouldn't suggest taking Physics if she finds it boring.

I like Sacu student’s A level matching tool, as it generates nice word clouds which are quick and easy to compare.

How about Maths, FM, Physics and English? A good combination of numerical and essay based - could apply to any social science, economics, politics, psychology, law or a science based degree.

I’d say maths physics English was a better spread but mine hated physics and then regretted dropping it because so many sciences prefer it. If she’s academically very able what about IB instead of Alevels? It’s much broader but massive contact hours.

I'm an economist and I think that is a perfect combination for economics or PPE. But ultimately, it should be her choice.

I have DC who took various combinations of Maths, FM, a science and a humanity. They enjoyed the mix and lots of options were left open. However, a couple of observations:

Maths, Politics, FM (plus another) is a relatively unusual combination (only 135 18 yo sat M,FM,Pol last summer). You may find the 'option blocks' in sixth form do not allow that combo; this was an issue for my DCs, even at their large comp which did its level best to facilitate lots of combos with FM. In this scenario, your DD needs to trade off Politics (fav subject) vs FM (doors opened to certain highly competitive courses/unis).

Combining Physics with Maths and FM can release 'syllabus overlap advantages' but all are a big step up. I would be wary of embarking on A level Physics when there is no real spark of enthusiasm or powerful motivation. One of mine chose a different science for that reason. If the physical sciences don't really float her boat then that is fine and simplifies some of the options.

Finally, your DD should consider scenarios where FM is initially taken but is subsequently dropped because of waning enthusiasm, time pressures etc. How does she feel in that situation? My DC were comfortable with their choices whether or not they persisted with FM.

The combination that keeps most options open is probably maths, chemistry and an essay based humanity. Maths is popular for so many subjects, you need another science for most science degrees and Chemistry is the central science so keeps open physics and biology courses then an essay based subject allows you to do most humanity subjects at uni.

So maths, physics and politics sounds a sensible combination and has a mix of known subjects and a new subject. How many subjects does her 6th form let them try at the transition days? DD1 very quickly realised which subjects she definitely didn't want to do after having a couple of lessons.

Yes as the wise @RedSkyDelights observes, no combo of A levels will keep all options open. Many options will basically be closed (or as good as) by most combos tbf.

Eng lit keeps open the doorway to study Eng lit, for which it is essential (don't come at me with your liberal arts degrees haha); obvs maths + FM as you observe keeps open the door to maths, econ, maybe computing. If engineering was of interest then physics would be a great addition.

Politics doesn't open any doors as such (not to say it is not interesting and worth studying ofc); even a politics degree will not specify it as a requirement.

A pp says do chem to keep bio and physics options open but tbh IME most biology courses actually require biology. So I am not sure that helps. I'm also not convinced that an essay subject keeps open most humanities doors at uni either. History A level won't lead you to an Eng lit degree.

If she finds physics boring, will she find the degrees it enables boring too?

Inn terms of social sciences, sociology and psychology degrees don't as a rule specify those A levels tho they may ask for a science - but then maths ticks that box. I don;t think takin gphysics would make, for example, geography degree any more accessible. Actually an MN-er recently posed this question and it is clear that a numer of unis (inc Leeds IIRC) do not require geography for geog BSc as long as you have a science. How common it is to do geography without geograhy A level (as in, why would you not do it if you like it that much?) I don;t know.

ANywayyyyy my suggestion is that she thinks if she might like to be an engineer as atm she is more or less ruling that out; physics would rule it in. Does she want to study Eng lit? My immediate thought is maths x 2, physics and Eng lit, but if physics is dull then do politics instead.

I am an Economist with an Economics degree and I find it very odd advice not to do Economics A level, it's not essential but if that's were her interest lies and is her preferred subject it makes sense for her to do what she enjoys. It would also show her if she really likes economics though personally I didn't like the A level but loved degree and work. Almost everyone on my economics degree had economics A level though will vary by university and course. Plus if there's an interview, it's evidence of interest in subject. I also did politics A level which came in very useful in the economics degree but depends on what economics degree, look at course content. My daughter is doing Economics at Oxford without Economics A level so it is possible but she grew up with economics discussed a lot. Around half of people end up dropping FM at DDs school though Economics still very possible, I never thought DD would give up but she did.

I think @SilkiePs makes a good point tbh. Yes, econ A level is not required for the degree, but taking it is probably a good idea if the degree is of interest and the A level is offered at your school – not least bc it might give you an idea what the subject is like (which unlike history you may not know).

We do sometimes (on MN I mean) get super caught up in the idea of keeping options open with A level choices, which is only possible to a certain degree anyway. In general surely it's better to do what you think you will enjoy.

Yes, look at what that will mean – consider if you want to take engineering/MFL/Eng lit/dentistry at uni and whether you are excluding courses you would really enjoy; but ultimately there's no point keeping open doors to humanities (Eng lit IMO only holds open the (excellent) Eng lit door tbh in any case) if you actually would rather study maths.

Btw if she does want to be a journalist (you reference this as a possible degree @phyllidafosset) then having science specialisms can only be a good thing IMO; certs no need for Eng lit A level to get on a journalism course. Tho it's not a career route to be taken lightly. Anyone with aspirations should ideally already be doing loads of stuff.

She doesn’t need economics for an economics degree.
She should not do physics unless she loves it - it’s one of the hardest A levels so putting the work in when you don’t enjoy it is a recipe for disaster.
Maths, Further Maths and English are great. Are there any other options?

We did discuss IB a while ago, but she has heard it is really hard and she is not keen on that idea. And actually one of the issues is that she doesn't love anything. That is what is making it hard for her to decide.

Thanks all for so many really helpful responses.

The main issue is that she doesn't have a clue what she wants to do because nothing really grabs her interest at the moment (I blame the national curriculum, but that is a whole other thread!).

She is really committed do doing politics. I'm not sure why, but I'm glad that she is motivated. She used to love History, and I think it picks up some of those skills, so I'm really happy for her to do that. The issue she has is that she doesn't really love anything. I would happily tell her to do the subjects she liked most, if she had any clue what they were. I am just worried about about her closing down her options, because she has no clue what she is interested in.

I think the challenge is that a favourite topic at GCSE isn't always a favourite topic at A-Level, but at least liking it at GCSE is a starting point!

I got her to read Freakonomics, and she found it interesting but I don't think it lit a burning passion. However, I'm worried if she does two new topics and finds she likes them less than the ones she was doing before, that could be an issue.

Even if Chemistry would be helpful, she doesn't like it. The only science she doesn't mind is Physics, but it is so hard to know if that is about the fact that she finds it easy, or if it is because she is actually a bit interested in it. She likes getting good grades in it.

It is a bit of an impossible question to answer (because one person's interest is another persons snooze-fest), but does Physics get more interesting at A-level? I'm wondering if there are some more exciting topics that people are able to get into.

Hi, OP -

It sounds like DD’s greatest enthusiasm us for Politics, is that right? I think this is teadon enough to do it.

Politics is not a facilitating subject. Both English and Physics are. Writing as a former Russell Group (STEM) admissions tutor in. school with a very high offer - and with apologies to those bored of reading that phrase - I am always ambivalent about doing four A levels, because I have seen it go wrong so often. But DD is clearly very able and I will take that, together with Politics, as given. So:

I think Maths, FM, Physics and Politics had much to offer. Pragmatically, DD is strong in Maths and Physics. If she elects Mechanics options, this trio has a lot of mutual reinforcement and is more like 2.5 A levels. That can be important.

Most

Of the A levels you mention, FM, Physics, Politics and Eng Lit (depending on exam board) certainly give the school scope to pick particular options; so it may be important to your DD to know which options will be selected if that will have a material impact on her preferred A level choices; also be aware that AQA Eng Lit has an NEA component.

One of my DC was interested in a range of A levels, including ones like Econ and Politics that they had not studied at GCSE. We got some study guides for the relevant exam board and downloaded past papers to help them get a better feel for what they will study and how they will be examined. That might help.

Apologies and continuation

Most of us are better at the Maths side or the writing side, and DD sounds very strong at Maths. Doing English would give her four full and more disparate A levels with two essay subjects. It may be substantially more work.

Yes, the further you go in Physics the better it gets! GCSE Physics doesn’t teach first principles. A level gets closer.

Maths, FM, Phys, Politics would open many doors in STEM but also Law, Economics, PPE, possibly Psychology, etc. It is an eclectic combination in a very positive way. STEM admissions tutors will like the note of civility and the writing skills from Politics and everyone else will be hugely impressed by the STEM, which is a fabulous and facilitating credential for many degree programmes and jobs.

Of course, if DD makes a tentative commitment to Physics (or FM) and associates it with a sinking feeling in the pit of her stomach, she should note this and switch to a subject her body prefers.

Best wishes to her.

Most of us are better at the Maths side or the writing side

This is a very English view, in most countries you don't get the choice to drop half of all culture from your education and cut down your options at 15/16. I'm Scottish and have Highers in (swot alert) 4 Sciences, 2 Humanities, and an Art. I completely changed what I wanted to study at University at 17 and this wasn't an issue at all because my education was broad enough to keep all options open. My eldest similarly has no preference for humanities vs science and really struggled with her A level choices (she's doing Chemistry, Biology and History).

@poetryandwine you have expressed really well my thoughts. DH is quite keen for to do English (she was an incredibly prolific reader until about 12, she could practically just breathe in a book). But Physics feels more potentially enabling.

But I think the dread question is a really important one. Nothing is worth that feeling!

@PerpetualOptimist i think exploring some exam papers is a good idea!

An interesting viewpoint, @JaninaDuszejko

I wasn’t talking about preferences, but aptitudes. If one does four A levels some consideration should be given to playing to strength.

I am not British and much prefer the Scottish, French or IB systems. But that is a different question.

I think looking at the A level course content in detail and possibly some degree content can help.

Also if you already know where she might apply you can sometimes get what percentage had what A level, for example, Cambridge Economics had 93% with Economics A level even though its not a requirement there is an economics based interview. My daughter did get through one without Economics A level but I have an Economics degree from Cambridge and always worked in economics and so she had grown up with economics and political discussions and had also self taught Economics GCSE and got a 9. There are an awful lot of applicants for the top economics courses and they can pick and choose on the tiniest of criteria.
https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/economics-ba-hons My daughter and I also both don't like Freakonomics, we both like macroeconomics and development economics.

From what you've said your DD seems to be expressing a preference for humanities subjects, economics, history, politics and economics has a lot of history and politics in it especially on the less maths intense courses. Around half my degree was similar to history and politics. You can at my DDs school at least change A levels in first couple of weeks, it's not ideal, but does give time to test. My daughter also could not say what she enjoyed, was good at both maths and writing subjects (common for economics students as it combines maths and writing) but tended to think like me in numbers and could put a number value to the subjects. She did initially start A levels on the ones that left most options open so Maths, FM and 2 sciences which I did not think sensible as she had never spoken of sciences / medicine before and quickly realised it was a mistake and changed to subjects she enjoyed. 4 isn't always better than 3 with Oxbridge as the tests and interviews can be quite time consuming and for many universities they don't require 4 but look up individual requirements. My DD did 3 and worked a lot in a job which she could discuss in interview and earned a fair amount that year for a student and sporty so good for mental health and is continuing that sport at Oxford.

This is very interesting post, @SilkiePs

I also wondered whether Economics or PPE might suit this DD, giving scope to bring her interest in Politics into (what is often) a quantitative profession.

Given that 93% of Cambridge economics students also have FM and this appears to be highly recommended, it appears that to do Economics A level DD would end up with Maths, FM, Politics and Economics.

Does anyone know whether there is any mutual reinforcement between Politics and Economics A levels? Certainly this set of four presents well to admissions tutors.

Mainly DD needs to refine her interests and this will guide her choices.

Looks like a very good line up for computational linguistics (look at both English language degrees and computer science).

This is a way into AI, also use of language to influence, and I think both of those will be "future proof" areas of expertise

I read PPE back in the day, and now have a Y12 DD taking Politics and Economics among her A Levels (as well as French). She’s loving all her subjects and feels they sit very well together. The school has an active Debate Club which she enjoys, and she feels that doing both Politics and Economics (plus reading around them) gives her a really decent foundation from which to understand current affairs and the world we live in.

I’m not sure that keeping options open is the key issue in selecting A Levels. Our system, rightly or wrongly, encourages specialisation at this age and stage, and in Y12 things move rapidly in narrowing down towards a degree or other higher ed pathway. @phyllidafosset I would think that if your DD likes the idea of an economics degree then that’s a decent pointer that economics would be a good A Level choice for her. Whether it’s necessary isn’t really the point - these little sparks of interest are what helps to move forward from the generality of GCSE.

We did look in detail at the A Level specs online for about 6 A Level subjects in order to help settle on the final choices. Taster lessons at school also helped.

Past a-levels, has she looked at something like archaeology or anthropology? Both would give her options to combine the maths, politics and anything else she chose to do since the different specialisations span the physical, natural and social sciences as well as the humanities? Also as pp have mentioned, geography, psychology, sociology or even broader, human sciences? Any of those degrees would give a huge range of potential career paths afterwards.

I think Economics and Politics A levels sit together very well but there isn't much overlap - I did Economics, Politics and Modern European Political History and History and Politics were similar techniques. All were very useful for the degree. As an Economist I am regularly working with politicians and on issues which have a political element and there's a fair amount of social functions as well. It will vary where you work but about half the roles I have done have involved working with politicians. Macroeconomics roles, development economics roles (such as UK foreign office sponsored roles), policy related roles and economic adviser roles to government Ministers can all use regular contact with politicians or political as well as economic analysis. Macroeconomics things like Trumps tariff announcement is very relevant. Roles I have done are probably only about 20% stats / maths and rest is more writing reports, monitoring/analysing global economic / political news, press releases, press interviews, social events like garden parties and dinners, speeches, presentations, meetings. Varies by job.