If you have a maths degree can I ask you about it?

[Cathpot]

My DD has just been rejected from maths at Oxford post interview and is taking it really hard- much harder than I was expecting.

We have a lot to unpick about this but on a practical level I realised that she hadn’t really thought past the maths degree itself , just that she likes maths and people tell her it is a useful degree.. she was aiming for maths at Oxford and then presumed life would sort itself out from there.

She has offers from Edinburgh/ York /Bath and is waiting to hear from Warwick if anyone has direct experience of those unis? . I’m hoping to help her put this all into a perspective over the next few weeks - info about your experience of maths as a degree and then what it lead to would be really helpful . She is state school educated in a rural part of the country so we have zero contact with big finance companies etc and I don’t really know enough to talk confidentially about what uni/ work in the maths sphere might look like.

My maths degree was many years ago. I sailed through A levels but did not enjoy the degree at all, just fyi. Of my peers, only one went on to be an actual mathematician and after about a year he left to train in accountancy for a more lucrative career. Most others I remember also went into accountancy, one to be an actuary, and a few of us into IT roles

My child has a maths degree. State school educated, RG uni. No experience of big finance companies. Did a degree where one year is spent in industry - ended up working for one of the big 5 accountancy firms in London. Got a graduate trainee position with the same company when finished her degree. 10 years later is earning £100K+ as an accountant director.

@Cathpot there are lots of websites that list jobs that need maths degrees, e.g.
https://www.prospects.ac.uk/careers-advice/what-can-i-do-with-my-degree/mathematics

It would be helpful for her to think about what aspect of maths she likes best, e.g. pure maths, mechanics, statistics.

My DS1 preferred stats, so did a stats-focussed degree, graduating this summer, and has a job lined up training to be an actuary.

My DS2 preferred mechanics, so decided to do a civil engineering degree rather than maths.

My friend’s son didn’t get into Oxford for maths and went to Warwick but is now at Oxford doing a masters and has a great job lined up. DS is at Warwick - not doing maths - and loves it.

DH has a maths degree and works in finance. It's a great degree for all sorts of careers because it demonstrates useful skills like numeracy and problem solving ability.

I don't have a maths degree but I have colleagues who do. I'm a research scientist in a biology field. Biology these days is extremely maths and computation focused (data mining, AI, computational modelling etc) and there is high demand and lots of opportunities for people with maths and programming skills.
Of course you earn like crap compared to the jobs that other people have been posting but it's a passion job. Perhaps it's not what you're daughter would like but I wanted to offer it as an option that she might not realise she would have!

Firstly well done to your DD, those are great unis. Bath is an excellent place to study maths, as is Warwick. Mate of DS's did maths at Bath and did a year in industry where he earned about £28k so that was not bad. She will do really well I am sure. DS's mate (two years post graduating) is now working in some kind of operational research role and earns well.

I have a dd doing maths and she loves it. There are many specialisms and topics within maths so your dd should look online at the course structure, modules and available choices for each of those universities. It’s possible to go in the STEM direction (physics basically), go into coding, statistics, business, all sorts of directions.
If she isn’t sure about doing 100% maths she could think about combining it with another subject.

Bath university has a good reputation for students wanting the “year in industry” so that may be something for your dd to consider as students who do a year out working in a firm like Aviva have a foot in the door for a graduate scheme job after graduating.

As for Maths itself as a degree, does she want it to get atop job or does she want to do it for academic interest/academic career? It’s a very hard degree, so unless she lives and breathes it, maybe a similar degree, I.e. physics for engineering or economics for financial services?

Even within maths itself, there are specialisms rather than a pure maths degree such as Financial Maths which concentrates more on financial related areas such as statistics and probability but also includes less pure maths but virtually no engineering maths, trig, etc but instead includes economics, accounting and business. Some units do Bsc In financial maths others do ba - the bsc is more maths heavy whereas the ba is less maths. Just other avenues to explore.

Or natural science where you can build your own degree out of a mix of maths and science modules.

Oh yes I forgot about that! Biological computation and biostatistics for example are huge and interesting fields.

Bear in mind that Edinburgh is a 4yr under grad and the first year usually involves selecting a mix of subjects more like Alevels. It’s also a very expensive place to live and Scottish students will be getting their tuition fees paid so levels of disposal income may vary among her peers.
people I know with maths degrees do teaching, data analysis / automation and coding type roles, actuary, accountancy.

DD was rejected by Oxford and is now doing maths a Bath and loving it. To be honest, I think her overall experience is better than it would have been at Oxford as the work / play balance is much better. She is currently doing a year in industry as a data statistician and may well end up doing this as a career. The year in industry option seems excellent for getting a job post graduation. Bath appears to be quite unusual in that so many maths students do years in industry (about 2/3 of the cohort).

Ds was also turned down for Oxford maths yesterday and will accept place at Bath because it's been such a great experience for DD.

Work options for maths graduates appear very good.

Warwick was considered to be the best university in the country for Maths when I was applying in the late 2000s, so if she gets in there, she'll have done really well! Edinburgh, York and Bath are all excellent unis, too.

I became a teacher after my Maths degree (I went to Sussex) and was given £20,000 (tax-free) to train because I got a First. This was back in 2012, though, so I'm not sure if this still happens.

Schools are DESPERATE for Maths teachers who actually have a Maths degree. However, teaching really is a vocation, so if it's something she's never considered then it's probably not for her.

Lots of people I did my course with went on to do accountancy, if that helps.

There are many specialisms and topics within maths so your dd should look online at the course structure, modules and available choices for each of those universities.

This is excellent advice. Overall, I loved my Maths degree, but I found the Stats and Finance modules incredibly dull.

I’ve used my maths degree to be a teacher and do an engineering job. My course mates became teachers, actuaries, accountants etc. I really enjoyed it, it seems to be a meaty degree that people take seriously.

DS has friends who did maths at WW. They now work as actuaries and have well paying jobs.

My DD is doing maths at York. I would generally say that maths is a flexible subject and there are lots of career options from it. We are a STEM household so are very pro maths!
Maths has always been DDs favourite subject at school and there was never really any question that she would do it at uni. However - she doesn't actually enjoy science or coding. Which narrows those options down a lot! She is graduating this year, looking at job options and is really struggling. Jobs seem to be mainly split into finance, actuarial work (stats), engineering/ science and coding.

She doesn't want to do any of them! So is carefully looking at some of the more niche options and will need to dig a little deeper to find something she is passionate about.

It may be worth looking at some of the career options now. In hindsight, I think DD would have been better doing a degree in something like operational research and maths, as most of the career options she is looking at require more specialist training / education. But she didn't know that was what she wanted when she chose her degree!

What other A levels is she doing? Our clue should have been that she did maths and two other completely unrelated subjects, where everyone else was doing science alongside maths!

@learningishard no FM?

Yes, she also did further maths. Then a social science and a humanities subject.

She has little interest in accountancy, coding (needed for most data science work), engineering.

She is quite interested in how maths is presented to the public - think those terrible daily COVID graphs set her off!

I suspect she will need to do an MSc in order to specialise further. Most grad schemes are from big engineering, consultancy or accountancy firms.

But definitely worth thinking about now for your DD - as once you are doing the degree, the module choices made in 2nd / 3rd year become important!

Warwick bath York and Edinburgh would be my preference order

Warwick ( and bath I think ) has a very practical problem solving course which will better show how maths is used in so many fields

As well as finance think things like data science ( any topic you can think off from medical , environmental, social media marketing, office of Nat stats and government auditing ) or cyber security ( corporate, academic or police )

BIL has a maths degree. Like pp he found a level easy and degree very difficult. He a
Didn't know what he wanted to do afterwards. He retrained as an accountant afterwards.

How much added value is it for people to stay on for their integrated masters in maths?

Don't want to derail the thread but just to say thank you for sharing this. DD was rejected for Maths at Oxford yesterday too. She's had offers from her other choices though including Bath. She was leaning towards Bath as her firm choice as she loved the open day and thought the maths department was really impressive, so it's great to hear that your daughter's experience matches that. Agree about the work/life balance somewhere that's not Oxford point.

@Cathpot obviously things might change over the course of the next few years, but currently DD is interested in a cyber based career following her maths degree.

OP on YouTube there are a couple of chats by Matt Williams, a tutor at Oxford, talking about this as he was turned down by Cambridge as a teenager, and then in his initial application to Oxford for post grad. Your dd might find that helpful. He is honest and straightforward, and explains the process well, giving context, as he deals with admissions. Have a look at them, I will link below.
I have a dd at Oxford and it has its pros and cons. Oxford is a highly pressured and intense environment, it’s incredibly stressful and aspects of it have been really hard for my daughter (also coming from a rural comp which has been a factor in how hard it’s been). I do feel that my dd might have had more fun and a better life balance elsewhere, although some aspects of Oxford do suit her. It’s likely that at this point in her life Oxford is simply not quite the right fit for your daughter, but somewhere else will be. The other universities your dd has places for are all good. Bath is a nice place to study.
If your dd has her heart set on Oxford this doesn’t mean she can never go there, she might want to apply there for a masters.

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