Law at Uni of York

[stubiff]

https://www.york.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/llb-law/
"We are the only law school in the UK to use a problem-based learning approach as the basis for our undergraduate programmes. We believe this modern, practical method will help you to develop the skills and techniques you will need to stand out as a professional."

Anyone/DC gone through this and have any insight, please?

Have read/watched some blogs/vlogs and it seems an interesting way of doing it.

@stubiff As DD did GDL and not a degree, I think this course would prepare students for some careers in law, but not others. Many lawyers will need a traditional education and pick up the practical side as they go along post degree.

Plus no law student is a professional. They are job applicants at best. No one will really look at students from this course and think they are different. I also think it’s very difficult to teach what employers are looking for. As lots of non law students become lawyers, a new way of teaching undergrad law might just be a way of getting bums on seats from a different demographic. Not sure there’s any evidence about employment as lawyers though so is it sales waffle?

I’ve interviewed and recruited a number of students who went through it and it produces good results. One of the most frustrating things about trainees/NQs is their lack of ability to think commercially and produce solutions rather than spout black letter law or say why something can’t/ shouldn’t be done and this approach is supposed to help address that so should be useful.

Only thing I will say is many forms are still ‘traditional’ so oxbridge does still carry cachet if you DC is going for the magic circle, provided lots of pro bono & work experience too.

@TizerorFizz

It's just (I believe) the seminars which are done that way. They're obv still learning the theory. Then applying that in scenario/collaborative situations.
Can you elaborate on 'would prepare students for some careers in law, but not others.'?
Evidence about employment - see Keepingthingsinteresting.

@Keepingthingsinteresting
Thanks, just the type of thing I was after.

@Keepingthingsinteresting
Re "Only thing I will say is many forms are still ‘traditional’ so oxbridge does still carry cachet if you DC is going for the magic circle, provided lots of pro bono & work experience too."

Yes, this is not to say choose York (for that experience) when you could get into higher.
This is when all other things are roughly equal.

@stubiff I can only comment on being a barrister as DD is one. She’s a solutions person - family. Many other barristers will be far more law heavy in their area of law. In London chambers still take 40% Oxbridge. Some chambers are 100% Oxbridge. So what happens at York could be irrelevant.

It’s also irrelevant if DC just are not up to getting a job which will lead to them being a solicitor. A degree guarantees nothing. As I think has been discussed, the solicitors qualification has changed but the numbers actually becoming solicitors won’t change much. What success rate does York have regarding dc actually qualifying? That’s the key info and unis never give it.

@TizerorFizz
What you talk about is not particularly relevant to the question, sorry.
For confirmation, it would be the Solicitor route not Barrister.

We could come up with loads of things that are not relevant, but that doesn't help.
What happens with Oxbridge doesn't matter (in this context). Someone could go to Sheffield, Lancaster or Manchester, and not be up to it. All of those could have the same style as York ( they don't) but that doesn't matter.

Agree, a degree doesn't guarantee anything, but again not relevant in this context. The route is either (if taking Law) degree - SQE, or apprenticeship (degree) - SQE, i.e. you need a degree.

@stubiff That was not your original query.

You still cannot say one degree is better than another in terms of being practical without evidence that it enhances recruitment and neither can the uni.They believe they have responded to demand but that’s not the same as students getting jobs leading to being a solicitor.

If DD doesn’t want London law at the highest level, the biggest regional law unis are Manchester and Birmingham. It’s impossible to say which uni is better for getting a job but York are pitching that theirs is. Where’s the evidence for that? What % actually qualify as solicitors? If they won’t say, or don’t know, is there any point in saying how the seminars are run? Who cares exactly?

@stubiff have you seen this?

discoveruni.gov.uk/course-details/10007167/UUBLAWSLAW3~UBLAWSLAW3/Full-time/

So I’ve never said that it’s better.
I asked for insight and said it looks interesting.
Not sure they are saying that they are better either, they say they believe it helps.
Recruitment isn’t just based on the Uni, so you’re never going to get that data, from anywhere.
Really, who cares?! The people applying care.

@TizerorFizz
PP has provided the type of insight. They thought there is merit in it and said where some recruits may be lacking.

I did my l look aw degree elsewhere but I did most modules by answering quesuons baed on problems over essays as far as possible.

I was good at problem questions. Essays I found wishy washy. They didn't really teach us how to do either technique either.

I know a few young people who have studied law at York. They LOVED it, simply because it was not purely academic and therefore more "fun".
Some have training contracts (decent High Street firms but not "City") ; others not.
Edited to add: if it means they will get a better class of degree, then this will also stand them in good stead.
But beware, the route to qualification following a degree is now fiendishly difficult!

@stubiff York say their unique teaching method makes you stand out as a professional. I’m really not sure that claim can be justified. If the teaching there is likely to suit, then DD should go for it. However the statement you quoted should be taken with a pinch of salt because it strongly implies you will be a “better” professional because of their teaching - so a professional solicitor or barrister would be my reading of that. There’s no evidence to back that up. If you don’t want an academic heavy law degree, maybe that’s the best choice.

Other unis also respond to employers: Bristol, for example, mentions vocational development and a strong academic experience. They also aim for grads to have excellent legal, analytical and reasoning skills. You would expect this from the top unis - they just explain it differently.

You've probably seen this already @stubiff but here is the list of Law Undergraduate rankings from the Complete University Guide

York is very safely inside the top 20 at #15

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/law

@MollieSugdon
Thanks. Yes, use CUG for research. Have seen similar for the other link you posted.

I am also interested in the Law courses available at York because my DS is going there in 2025 to study History with one eye on postgraduate study in the Law dept.

@aliceinawonderland
Thanks. Some styles of teaching suit some better, so can understand why some may go for it/prefer it.
And there has been much mentioned of the benefit of a 1st.

@Keepingthingsinteresting

"One of the most frustrating things about trainees/NQs is their lack of ability to think commercially and produce solutions rather than spout black letter law or say why something can’t/ shouldn’t be done "

I couldn't agree more and from the client's perspective they engage a law firm to get the deal done on the terms they commercially agreed as this is what generates the business and pays the legal fees- not for the law firm to come up with reasons not to do the business.

I would say the vast majority of trainees have absolutely zero commercial nouse and any trainee that does is worth her weight in gold!

@TizerorFizz
Re "the biggest regional law unis are Manchester and Birmingham."
Based on some other metric than the number of students?
Thanks.

I know a number of recent (over last
5 + years) York law graduates who’ve secured training contracts (solicitors) and pupillages (barristers) with highly regarded provincial and inner circle firms/chambers. Those who’ve completed that training are working at the same level. All are very positive about studying at York and their student experience.
As I understand it, the UoY problem-solving method requires everyone to participate in seminars/tutorials - no coasting! Students still have to cover the same core subjects as they would in any English law degree. To those in the know, UoY is something of a ‘sleeper’ uni and has a sterling reputation with employers for producing academically able and flexible thinkers, but who take a pragmatic approach to problem solving.

I would say the most important consideration is whether a problem-based learning approach suits the individual student.

Never mind law, it matters for any subject.

I recently did a taught masters which involved problem based learning.
I didn’t enjoy that part at all (and many people felt the same) but there were people who did seem to enjoy that approach. I didn’t find it really did what it set out to do, I think there were lots of flaws, but perhaps that’s just the subject, or the way it was implemented.

I couldn’t have chosen a different course because as a mature student I needed to live at home and not uproot the rest of the family, otherwise maybe I would have done.

If your Dd is enthused by the idea of learning like that, definitely choose it. If she thinks she might prefer a more traditional approach, choose that.

Know yourself, play to your own strengths, just because an approach is “better” for some (or even for the majority) doesn’t mean it’s better for you.

@RainbowsAreNotTheOnlyFruit
Yes. I hadn't done this before, but a quick LinkedIn search for current/recent trainee solicitors going via UoY brings up a number of top firms - Slaughter&May, DLA Piper, A&O Shearman, Mishcon de Reya, Hogan Lovells and Eversheds, so it's certainly not holding people back.

@ClementinePancakes
Thanks. Like anything/everything, DS (not DD as a couple have said) needs to choose based on strengths/preferences, not a generality of 'better'.

@stubiff Chambers Student.

Of course York grads get jobs but not as high a percentage as other elite unis. Manchester is the biggest hitter outside London but size of firm and number of offices also matters. Durham, Nottingham, Bristol, Kings, UCL, Warwick and LSE are the top in London plus Oxbridge at the very top. They haven’t done research for a few years now but this would probably still be what you find. Method of teaching is likely to not matter.

If you cannot problem solve, or apply critical thinking, the application of the law might not be for you. None of the top unis have coasting students. Can you imagine LSE students coasting? So there’s little evidence York gives a bonus when it comes to jobs plus so many lawyers didn’t do law at all and plenty are mature entrants.

@TizerorFizz
You keep wanting to provide or say that there isn't evidence that York provides a bonus. Repeating - that wasn't the point of the thread, but I'll have a conv with you about it.

Firstly, re "If you cannot problem solve, or apply critical thinking, the application of the law might not be for you." - again, so? How is that relevant to the conv.
Re "plus so many lawyers didn’t do law at all and plenty are mature entrants." - again, so? There are mature students in both law and non-law degrees. The conv is one what the York Law degree is like. And then whether that factors into the choice of law degrees at which Uni.

Back to the report. You mention the regions but then list the London top 10.

For clarity I don't think DS will look at London (firms, and poss not Unis). And, at this early stage, I think his max predicted grades would be AAA (so prob rules out some AStar places, like Manchester).

Not sure which version(s) you're looking at (I had come across them, and briefly skimmed, before you mentioned).
On National(not-London)/Regions - the 2019 one has Birmingham top (but very very similar to Bristol and Nottingham), with Manchester 5th.
The 2016 one has for Nat+Reg, Manchester top and Birmingham 5th (with York at a very similar level), and for Nat only, Manc top, Birm 4th and York 6th (again on a very similar level to Birm).
So, firstly, not sure where you're getting Manc and Birm as the biggest.

In the 2019 one, in the overall figures (which may be an amalgamation of all years (inc prev reports)) Birm is 3.4%, Manc 3.1% and York 3.1%. They, including York, are in and around other 'elite' Unis, such as KCL, UCL, Leeds and Sheffield.
In the '16-18 years, all three are similar, in the 8-17 range, and in '18 York was the highest of them.

The report says "This survey doesn’t account for the numbers graduating from each institution. For example, Manchester and Nottingham’s undergrad enrolments are much higher than that of St Andrews’. This will skew the results in favour of the larger, less specialist institutions."
Manc and Birm have larger student numbers than York (and guessing larger Law schools), so one could argue that York is punching above it's weight.
I'm not going to argue that, though!

But all this is a bit of a moot point, as 'which Uni' is only a small part of recruitment. It's not relevant on blind recruitment, and is not relevant for aptitude tests, interviews and assessment centres.

If DC really suits the style of learning, and mix of assessment, then it may help them get a better grade, or enjoy the course more. That's all that can be said.

Two of my best friends are partners in Silver Circle law firms - one went to Dundee and the other to York (DD also went to York but not for law but I do love the Uni). Their choice of Uni hasn’t held them back in the law work.