DS 15 Law

[SureGar]

Dd is considering studying law at university but we have no background in the field and don't personally know any lawyers to ask for advice. She seems pretty set on the idea, but I’d love to get some insight from those with experience.

• What kind of personality or skills suit a career in law?
• Are there any practical steps she should take now (e.g., work experience, volunteering, Saturday job,)?
• What are realistic career options post-graduation?
• Does anyone have insights on the best universities for undergraduate study?
• How about a different degree with an eye to doing a conversion course later?
• What's the work/life balance like nowadays?
• Any book recommendations that might be useful
• If you are a lawyer, do you like/ love your job?

Thanks!

https://www.ucas.com/explore/subjects/law

• What kind of personality or skills suit a career in law?

Depends on the type of law but in general a good lawyer is confident, personable, very intelligent, pays attention to detail and is a quick thinker. Good at debating.

• Are there any practical steps she should take now (e.g., work experience, volunteering, Saturday job,)?

She needs as much legal work experience as possible. It isn't easy to get.

• What are realistic career options post-graduation?

It's easy to get onto a law degree. It isn't easy to get a job in law. She needs to be academically excellent, very confident and the type of person who can persuade clients to give her their work.

• Does anyone have insights on the best universities for undergraduate study?

Hate to say it but for the most part you are looking at pre 92 universities. Anything that used to be a polytechnic is going to create an additional hurdle to overcome (with the possible exception of NTU but only because they have a very well known and well established post graduate law school)

• How about a different degree with an eye to doing a conversion course later?

Additional cost. If she wants to do law then do law. The route to qualification has now changed and technically it's possible to do the SQE and not even study law.

• What's the work/life balance like nowadays?

Shockingly awful and in general the perception is that Gen Z are not cut out for it and are too focussed on work life balance/their special quirks that mean they don't have to do their job properly.

• Any book recommendations that might be useful

Not really. Law books are quite dry. Might be worth getting an A level law revision book from the library and having a read just to see whether she thinks its even vaguely interesting as a subject.

• If you are a lawyer, do you like/ love your job?

Yes I love it but I'm old and senior and bossy and argumentative.

Have a look at this from the Bar Council:

https://www.barcouncil.org.uk/becoming-a-barrister/school-students.html

She should seek to understand the difference between barristers and solicitors, though she doesn’t need to make a decision now about which path is right for her. If she’s going to study law she will keep both options open.

Also look into and understand the difference between civil and criminal law. Find out where your nearest courts are and on a weekday when she isn’t at school she can sit in on a public hearing in a Crown Court or Magistrates’ Court (criminal) or County Court (civil).

As a senior barrister and pupillage committee chair I couldn’t care less what Saturday jobs an applicant had at school, but any early work experience or volunteering is good more generally for confidence-building. She might want to join a debating club if available, but career-specific experience (for the Bar) such as mooting and mini-pupillage comes into play later, at undergraduate and postgraduate level. So don’t worry too much about that. Keep an eye on the Bar Council website for age-appropriate opportunities such as mock trial competitions etc.

The work-life balance can be very tough, perhaps especially when you are starting out and establishing yourself, but there are many options for qualified lawyers including in-house careers which (I hear!) can provide a better balance. Lots to think about, and best of luck to her.

If he’d qualify for it, Sutton Trust Pathways to Law is a great programme

Here’s some information from the solicitors’ side of the profession (The Law Society):

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/career-advice

In my previous post I forgot perhaps the most important advice to a 15 year old looking at law: knuckle down and get the very best GCSE and A Level grades you possibly can. These are rewarding but very competitive careers. Even when you are senior enough to be applying for judicial posts, they still want to know your A Level results 😀

As a lawyer, I like my pay cheque...that's about it.

With AI, junior lawyers have no hope.

As I say to the hundreds of people asking me for career advice to get into law: unless you've got a 2.i from a RG or above university, just forget it. You'll otherwise get yourself into huge debt before you even get a training contract.

And to add, EVERY applicant will have a near perfect flush of GCSEs and A levels

Book recommendation: The Secret Barrister

https://www.legalcheek.com/paths-to-becoming-a-lawyer/

For the route, most direct being A-levels, Law degree then SQE.

Great advice, thank you.

She needs as much legal work experience as possible. It isn't easy to get.
@user9086572 just to clarify where would DD be able to get such work experience? Volunteering at citizens advice bureau? There will probably be a minimum age for that.. any other places or charities? She has a pretty good work ethic and is dedicated. We looked at some websites ranging law school in the UK but I don't know how reliable these are. Apparently oxbridge (of course), UCL, London school of economics Durham, Bristol...

Can use this as a starter for Uni list.
https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/law

But some will probably come on and say you only want to look at RG unis!

Unifrog is a good place to start for careers and uni information.

Go with her to watch Court cases at the magistrates and crown court and do a trip to London to the Houses of Parliament too.

I love it but I am in consultancy so not got the stress of private practice. Not got the pay either for the work I do put in. I do have a slew of top grades from school and a 2:1 from a RG Uni.

At 15 she is unlikely to get meaningful work experience in the legal sector, because she is too young to sign a confidentiality agreement. For now she should focus instead on understanding the legal sector (which she can research for free), doing well in her studies, and developing confidence and transferrable skills. At this age nobody is building specific legal-sector work experience. Please don’t worry about that.

I think you may be my clone ha!

OP on the work experience, whilst legal themed experience is helpful she is likely too young at the moment.

For me, on a personal level I gained a lot of transferable skills and experience from working during my teens in very busy hospitality roles. Waitressing in a nice little cafe gives some experience, but it's tame when can instead gain a lot of varied skills working in the busiest restaurant in town and on the busiest shifts. I would encourage her to seek out the more challenging part time jobs available to teens.

It put me under pressure, out of my comfort zone, had to problem solve quickly on my feet whilst also managing customer expectations, dealing with difficult customers, working with varied teams, being personally responsible for money matters, dealing with hierarchy of managers and supervisors, working long hours, multitasking and prioritising and overall stamina to keep going and not burst into tears! It sounds harsh but it made me resilient in so many ways and gave me a very good head start on skills that were invaluable in the early years of a law career. Those skills can still sum up my day 25 years later!

As a tutor on the Law post grad course in London, I think it depends on the type of Law she wants to get into. If she's happy with the High Street, she doesn't need stellar grades...just reasonable intelligence and a good work ethic.
Obviously the Bar and City Law firms are another matter.
I'd advise concentrating on GCSEs and A levels and then thinking about it later. She's got plenty of time

If they are set on Law then an apprenticeship is an option, to earn straight at A-levels (or equiv).

See https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/5213217-solicitor-apprenticeship

Also, Weightmans have some good Early Careers pages
https://www.weightmans.com/careers/early-careers/

I genuinely wouldn't advise her setting her heart on an apprenticeship. They are few and far between plus you need to live near to a large firm that is taking on apprentices. If you're outside of London there are very few realistic opportunities (there are of course some). Plus all of the anecdotal evidence I've had from colleagues at other firms is that they are widely viewed as a bit of a shit show. The apprentices don't have the legal knowledge foundation to build on, don't have the independence and the resilience they need and don't have the written/learning/general communication skills they would've gained at university. I know of one very large firm which is stopping its apprenticeship opportunities already.

@user9086572
If that was towards me, then my words were 'If they are set on Law THEN an apprenticeship is an option'. Wasn't saying they should set their heart on an apprenticeship.

Options outside London, in Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle and others. But, agreed, compared to TCs it's natural that there are fewer options.

Would you like to share the company (stopping apprenticeships), as am also looking at this with my DC.

As a counter argument I know of one firm who is moving away from TCs (for the Graduate Apprenticeship, although this is obv at a different level) and they've had Sol Apprentices for a while.

There will be some apprenticeship options in many big cities but they will be very limited in number and you need to live close enough to make it a realistic option.

There are lots of firms moving away from the traditional training contract structure since the SQE route means there is far more flexibility. Training contracts are extremely expensive for firms to operate. However some firms are already realising that apprentices give very limited value and lawyers are generally extremely busy which has always made training a challenge.

Thanks again. To those of you who are lawyers, did you find reading law interesting and do you find your day to day job reasonably interesting? Law degrees seem to draw on so many areas that dd is into, history, politics, philosophy, even drama and psychology. But is actual day job also engaging?

Going and sitting in a magistrates and/or Crown court (criminal) and/or County Court (civil) is some of the best free exposure to coal face legal work you can get as a student - it’s what persuaded me to go into law back in the dark ages.

Law as a degree subject is really interesting and varied, academically challenging and some of the highest contact hours if you are worried about VFM. However, it is extremely difficult for even the brightest of well connected students to secure post graduate employment in the legal world so not for the faint hearted and I personally don’t recommend it for anyone other than the entirely dedicated. It’s not something to “float” into half arsed

At junior level in commercial law (what I know) the job consists of a lot of boring data analysis, document shuffling, dry research, coffee fetching, late night photocopying etc etc. In other fields there may be more exposure to actual clients and real law but “engaging” is not guaranteed.