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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Offer higher that published grades

71 replies

Pinhoe · 20/11/2024 11:13

Hi My DS has received an offer for stem subject from Edinburgh of Astar AA. For this subject AAA is standard offer. They are a strong candidate (all 9s/Astar predictions). Does this mean university is not sure about them or that the course is more in demand? It’s good news that they have offered early but I wonder why they make offers above their stated standard level? Anyone else finding this?

OP posts:
PumpkinKnitter · 24/11/2024 15:34

@poetryandwine DD decided against applying for 2nd year entry even though we think she would have qualified. She did get an email post-results allowing her to request 2nd year entry, though I'm not sure whether it was a firm offer or just a suggestion that she could apply.

The two obvious pros were shorter course / less debt, and being able to specialise earlier (she is studying a specialist option within biomedical sciences, so has a broader course in years 1 and 2).

The cons. Firstly, it adds a lot of pressure. She was told by a member of staff that the 2nd year entrants often struggle in their 1st year because they are playing catch up, which is why they restrict it to high flyers. They do catch up in the final two years and often do well, but need to be committed to putting the extra work in. DD is a hard worker, but felt she would rather have a more relaxed 1st year while she was adjusting to being at uni. One of her flatmates is a 2nd year entrant and does have a pretty hefty workload in comparison to all their 1st year friends. Another con is that it reduces the ability to take electives, which for many people that is one of the advantages of a four year agree. DD was less bothered about this, though has enjoyed the elective module she took this semester.

The clincher for DD was that she is very keen to spend a year abroad if possible. Study abroad through Edinburgh is competitive and 1st year results are a major factor in being able to get a place. DD felt that trying to combine applying to study abroad with 2nd year entry wouldn't be a viable option. It also made her less concerned about the 4 year degree, as in Edinburgh study abroad is an alternative to the 3rd year so doesn't add any length to the course. That pretty much levels the playing field between a 4 year Scottish degree and a 3 year plus year abroad degree in England.

Pinkissmart · 24/11/2024 15:38

Printedword · 20/11/2024 22:56

AAA seems low for a popular subject at a good uni - ie somewhere you’d expect a Russell Group type offer

🙄

poetryandwine · 24/11/2024 16:24

Than you @TizerorFizz and @PumpkinKnitter

As I reflect on the support and structure we offer to help Y1 settle in it is actually quite substantial, so this all makes sense. I think tizer’s point about the social side is also good.

I know the Study Abroad Officer in one of the Edinburgh STEM Schools. Yes, it is very competitive but they really look after their students!

PumpkinKnitter · 24/11/2024 19:31

That's good to hear @poetryandwine. Yes, I think going straight into Y2 would mean losing out on a lot of stuff that helps with the transition from school to university - I don't think there would be much hand holding.

TizerorFizz · 25/11/2024 09:41

@PumpkinKnitter I would say my DD in y1 at a similar uni to Edinburgh did not access hand holding and had to adjust. As an August born, she just had to be mature enough to do it. A handful needed some guidance on academic expectations but she didn’t know anyone with SEN for example. The ones who needed guidance on essays hadn’t done essay A levels but for an mfl degree, essays are needed. Hence the gap. I think one major difference would be going straight into y2 with exams that count if y1 exams didn’t. Although I don’t think that’s universal.

PumpkinKnitter · 25/11/2024 12:32

@TizerorFizz I think for DD it is not so much hand holding as introductory modules which focus on research skills, lab methods and so on, which she is finding very useful and Y2 entrants would miss. At Edinburgh neither Y1 nor Y2 exams count for their degree, so that would not be an issue.

TizerorFizz · 25/11/2024 15:07

@PumpkinKnitter Yes. I can see that would be an issue. My DD had y2 count but not Edinburgh! Y1 is Y1 for good reason. As I said earlier getting your uni skills and routines up to speed is usefully done in y1.

Cx5 · 26/11/2024 09:35

That's interesting @PumpkinKnitter Edinburgh was a last minute choice for my son so we missed the open day and attended the offer holder day instead, we were unaware of the information you received at the open day. He is 2nd year entry and he's settled in really well so far.

soupsetpleasehelp · 26/11/2024 13:31

Wouldn't it be much easier for everyone involved, if there were no offers given until just after the deadline (apart from the early applicants to Oxbridge, med, vet)??

By that stage, students would also be able to gauge more accurately what their on targets grades are going to be and, if having applied to Oxbridge, know more about whether they've got past the first hurdle (entrance exam/interview) at these institutions.

TizerorFizz · 26/11/2024 18:30

What about timescale for uni staff making decisions.? Some take 6 plus months now! 2-3 months would be impossible!

soupsetpleasehelp · 26/11/2024 18:32

Presumably they could start sifting through and perhaps add to 'offer' lists but sending them out in one batch?

poetryandwine · 26/11/2024 19:00

TizerorFizz · 26/11/2024 18:30

What about timescale for uni staff making decisions.? Some take 6 plus months now! 2-3 months would be impossible!

My impression is that usually this is because the admissions tutors are dealing with applications in large tranches. TBF, the easiest way to give equal consideration to all applications in before the deadline is to consider them en masse. But I find the idea unbearable; it’s also not particularly nice to applicants, of course.

TizerorFizz · 26/11/2024 19:14

@poetryandwine I can see it would be very very onerous!

soupsetpleasehelp · 27/11/2024 07:53

poetryandwine · 26/11/2024 19:00

My impression is that usually this is because the admissions tutors are dealing with applications in large tranches. TBF, the easiest way to give equal consideration to all applications in before the deadline is to consider them en masse. But I find the idea unbearable; it’s also not particularly nice to applicants, of course.

But, as I suggested, there is nothing stopping admissions to consider and sort applicants before the deadline, it's just that all the offers go out at the same time. I think this would be less stressful for applicants.

poetryandwine · 27/11/2024 09:02

soupsetpleasehelp · 27/11/2024 07:53

But, as I suggested, there is nothing stopping admissions to consider and sort applicants before the deadline, it's just that all the offers go out at the same time. I think this would be less stressful for applicants.

It is a valid point of disagreement.

A timely response can be seen as a sign of respect

WombatChocolate · 27/11/2024 09:40

Part of the timing decisions, I think is part of their recruitment strategy. It’s about maximising the uni outcome in terms of the optimum number if students and the best students they can fill the places with. It’s not about maximising individual student welfare.

Those that can’t afford to be so picky, often give offers much quicker and will give to everyone or very almost everyone who has predictions/grades that meet the standard offer.

Ofhers that have more applicants and are more popular, still know they need to make significantly more offers than places to fill….as they won’t be everyone’s top choice. In the middle ranks of RG for popular courses, some talk openly about putting applicants into ‘tiers’ with a candidate with 3 x A star being top tier. They will be offered first and anyone applying with those grades will get offers. They then work down the tiers until they’ve made the number if offers they think they need to in order to fill. As people start firming and insuring in the new year and the picture becomes a bit clearer, they might make further offers if more than expected decline.

The really top unis, and courses that are so significantly over applied for, who end up rejecting some candidates with seemingly perfect applications (3 x A star plus great PS) are often offering up to the deadline for offers as they try to maximise their outcomes. Often they won’t make offers before the end of Jan and if they do, it will only be to very top candidates (but quite why it’s some and not others who are equally good is unclear….maybe some element of purely selecting X number randomly of those top applicants) and then they keep gradually offering and are responding to candidates firming and insuring, so they can get their numbers as right as possible. Doing this means lots of offers have to be given late. It’s for the uni numbers’ benefit, not the individual students. It’s a business and it’s vital they get their numbers right, so this is why they do it.

The thing that complicates it a bit for me, is that all unis know it’s difficult to know what actual student performance will be. They know 80% of predicted grades are wrong, with most being too optimistic. The top unis know that the 3 x A star candidates have their pick if unis and may well have another place that is their top choice and won’t come. So whilst those candidates have the most leeway to miss their prediction by a grade or 2 and still hit the standard offer, they also might firm elsewhere. And as some do that, the uni can offer more places. But the interesting thing is that some of these very top unis decline some 3 x A star candidates and make an offer to a 2 Astar candidate or 1 Astar candidate or someone who ‘only’ have predictions at the standard offer level. I think this is about knowing those candidates have less options and are likely to hold less offers from very top places. They are more likely to firm if they get an offer as they are likely to have less top choices. And so unis want to give some offers to these candidates too as they are more likely to convert to actual bums on seats….if they make the grades.

And all unis know that come results day, if results are poorer than hoped, they can still take firmed or insured applicants who failed to meet their offer. The firms in particular are emotionally invested in the place, will have applied for accommodation and want to come. And are likely to come if accepted. Unis hope to not have to take too many via this route, but are very willing to do so if they need to. And they see it as preferable to the uncertainty of Clearing applicants, who in results day are in the phone to many unis, receiving many offers and likely then going elsewhere. Many will have to accept candidates who didn’t meet their offer AND go to Clearing too. Because most students don’t achieve their predicted grades and lots don’t meet their offer.

It’s all a numbers game and unis working with incomplete information as they need to offer based on predicted not actual grades…and until results day (or when the embargo starts) no-one knows the result s and until results day, no-one knows if applicants will convert to bums on seats.

As people often say, a post-qualification system would be better in lots of ways. But we don’t have it for various reasons, so whilst we exist in a system with pre-qualification applications, this numbers game will continue and Unis need to play it.

I suppose what candidates can take from it is a number if things; - predicted grades matter a lot in getting offers and at top unis and most popular courses you might need in excess of the standard offer to secure a standard offer (the amount if unis in this position is probably smaller than most think)

  • Many unis will still take you if you miss by a grade. Again this won’t apply or might not apply to the very top few courses at very top places, but a surprising number of very good places will end up taking some of their firmed candidates who miss their offer.
  • The more popular the course, the longer you’re likely to have to wait. Again, this is probably a smaller number if unis than people imagine.
  • Clearing has many opportunities for those who are ready to ring at 8am on results day. Many unis will have places available on a surprising number of courses, including very good and popular courses. They will want to fill up and ‘bargains’ are available with grades which would have never secured an offer at standard application time. But the best of these will be small in number and gone by 9am, so a plan, with phone numbers, actual A Level results to hand (and ideally module results I r elation to grade boundaries) will put candidates in the best position to secure the places.
  • Unfortuantley its a system where those in ‘the know’ have better opportunities. Those with info and good advice are better placed to apply aspirationally and secure the best places that their grades can achieve. Too many have limited advice and could have had a better place than they go to, if they had understood some of this stuff when applying, when firming and insuring and when deciding what to do on results day.
TizerorFizz · 27/11/2024 13:04

Potential students do need to consider hall availability if going through clearing. Where might they end up living?

I absolutely agree that “those in the know” are much better placed to advise but lots of DC have very firm ideas too about what they want and don’t want. It’s difficult to advise if DC are set on something that’s not remotely aspirational.

OVienna · 02/12/2024 13:25

Before I even opened this thread I knew it would be Uni of Edinburgh (or St Andrews.) DD was applying for politics, so this happens not just with the STEM subjects (and happened to her friend with English.)

DC2 very keen on it as well but not sure we want to repeat the experience.

CALLI0PE · 02/12/2024 22:59

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned the DBD dates yet? The top courses will be very over subscribed by excellent applicants and they know that many who they make offers to will be holding perhaps 4 or even 5.

Of couse , some of these applicants will decline some of those as soon as they get the one they really want plus an insurance. But some will wait until late May to do this . So the admissions office will have a list of very good applicants to make offers to after the DBD date, which is 4 June next year.

EmpressoftheMundane · 03/12/2024 08:26

With my cynical hat on, I would guess that A*AA is the standard offer really. But EU doesn’t want to admit that because then the gulf between the standard offer and contextual offers would look too great.

ALevelSurvivor · 11/03/2026 14:07

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