Talk to me about… undergrad in France

[HonorHiding]

DD is in Y12 and thinking about university. She is a British citizen with no right to any EU passport. She’s a good student with a strong sense of what she wants to do in the future.

She is aiming for a niche area of study (within the remit of AMES). Excellent courses on the precise subject area are available at around half a dozen universities in the UK, and her UCAS strategy is well-advanced. But she wants also to look at another course roughly (but not exactly) matching her interests, which is on offer at a Grande Ecole in (the South of) France. I suspect this is because she has a very close friend with French nationality applying to the same place.

I am happy for her to look widely and am not discouraging her research at all - on the contrary. But I privately believe that the financial side of picking an undergrad course in France will be a non-starter. I don’t believe (as she does) that she’d be entitled to a French government student loan, and she has no French guarantor for any loan. I have been clear with her that she needs to be entirely realistic on the money side and also the visa aspect, including whether she would be able to work on a student visa in France.

The UCAS website, unfortunately, seems not to have been updated since Brexit and is still saying (among other things) that no visa is required for a UK citizen to study in France. I have sent DD off to find more up to date information as a half-term task.

Can the wise heads of MN help me? If you or your DC have looked into this, I’d be really grateful for anything you learned. If it supports my hypothesis that she should go to one of the excellent options in the UK, so much the better!

In case relevant - she’d be on a minimum loan in the UK, we would top her up but also expect her to work part-time. We want to support her ambitions but will not shell out mindlessly for her to hang out in the South of France with her buddies when she could get all the education she needs here. If she wants to do postgrad overseas then she can secure the funding herself!

One other thing is that some Grande Ecoles require you take part in a kind of super competitive entry exam called the Concours, that French students spend 1-2 years preparing for.
Now that may be different for foreign students, but worht checking

How much is the course?

I don’t have specific knowledge of France but have studied / relatives are studying in a few other EU countries. In most, there are no tuition fees, or they’re minimal (I paid 400€ a year during my masters degree, for example), or if they’re a significant amount, are usually means-tested, international students included. The concept of a government loan to pay for your studies is also quite strange - I believe EU countries offering this are a minority.

Can’t help directly but to my (admittedly out of date) knowledge getting into a grande ecole is extremely competitive and difficult. Don’t you have to go to some special prep school for a year or more?

regardless of her ability I can’t see the GEs being geared up to anyone that wasn’t a. French and b. Speaking French to an extremely high standard (not saying your dd doesn’t, but you don’t specify).

hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along.

Sorry, I should have been clear on the language aspect. She speaks good (but not native) French. It wouldn’t be good enough to study in the French medium. But the course she is aiming for is taught in English, and so her admission essays can also be written in English. She would not be required to sit an exam, but there is an interview stage which she might or might not get through to.

It is Sciences Po I am talking about. Looking at their website I get the feeling that it might be rather less competitive for international students to get a place than French students, but that competition for a scholarship would be very intense indeed.

The current fees for her course at Sciences Po are 14,720 Euros per academic year. It would be a 3 year course. If she studied in the UK there would be a year abroad in an Arabic-speaking country, so 4 years in total. The value of the year abroad would for me far outweigh any cost considerations.

Since nobody else so far has had direct experience of a French undergrad course: yes, DD did her bachelors degree in France a while back, also in the south. But 1. she has an EU passport and we live in an EU country, 2. it was an international course taught in English, although DD does have fairly good French too, 3. the university she went to is technically equivalent to a grande ecole but doesn‘t have a concours process - it‘s a fairly stringent application process nonetheless.
In her case the fees were dependent on parental income and ranged from 0 per year to 10,000 euros for the very richest families. I think we paid about 3,000 per year. She got a tiny student loan from our home country and we paid the rest of her living costs - but we would have been obliged to even if she had studied in her home country. Living costs in France weren‘t any higher than studying at home. She did student jobs in the holidays to top up her income. So she certainly wasn‘t rich as a student there, but she came out of it with no student debt. I believe she would have been able to get some housing benefit but never managed to submit the complex forms - and that might not be possible for non-EU citizens now. You‘d also need to look into the health insurance situation, which I never really fully understood.
One thing to bear in mind is that French courses make the assumption that students will have done a baccalaureat equivalent, with multiple subjects studied until 18. So A-Level students would be disadvantaged if, for example, the course relies on maths knowledge that is not taught at GCSE (this happened with the few British students on DD‘s course).

Hi Honor, I just sent you a PM.

That’s interesting, @LadyGreySpillsTheTea. The means-testing seems only to apply to students whose “tax residence” is in the EU, so it would be full fees only for a UK student with any mitigation limited to those who win a scholarship. This may be why they make it a bit easier for international students to get in!

The maths point is a good one. Thank you.

The style of teaching at the Grande Ecoles is very rigorous and old fashioned. It's an amazing education but there's very little pastoral care. The students are the best of the best so both peer and academic pressure is very high and a lot of them crack. Imagine Oxford 20 years ago. If she had any history of anxiety or mental health problems I'd really avoid it.

Ah, I didn‘t realise only EU students got means tested. 14000 p.a. Is a big whack. But it‘s totally worth it for a Sciences Po degree. And for the year abroad (ie outside France) you only pay the French fee, even if the fee for the uni is much higher - there were people who used that to get a cheap year at partner unis in the US. Can we do any further questions byPM?

Thanks @StamppotAndGravy. Having myself been at Oxford 30ish years ago, before pastoral care was invented, I know exactly what you mean. DD is anxiety-prone and dyslexic, requiring plenty of support to realise her potential, which is yet another concern of mine.

@LadyGreySpillsTheTea Thanks for your PM - I’ve responded.

She will of course need a visa, but that's easy to get. You should ask her to research who can get loans to study in France - I doubt she'd be eligible which means you funding her. Have you got £15k plus what, another £15k a year to fund fees and living costs?

I did a year at Sciences-Po (Paris) as my year abroad for my UK degree and it was brutal. Lectures and seminars run from 8am to 10pm Mon-Fri. Any cancelled lectures or seminars (for example, if the professor is sick) take place on Sat mornings. Every fortnight, we had to do exams on Sat afternoons. If you missed 3 seminars during the year, you are kicked out regardless of why you missed them (so your mother died, your father died, you were ill in hospital - it doesn't matter!)

My course was all in French and we were marked on our oral participation as well as our written work. What that meant was if you were presenting, the other students (primarily French natives) would try to tear you apart as they got higher marks for doing that. It is very, very competitive and nothing like a UK university (which are holiday camps in comparison),or even a French university.

I had to pass an exam in the UK before I was allowed to apply to Sciences-Po. And then another exam on arrival before I was allowed to start my course. Which probably explains why there were not many international students.

It is a baptism of fire. Expect to work harder (and longer) than you've ever done in your life.

@titchy No we would not be minded to fund her in full on a non-loan, non-scholarship basis. It might be different if there wasn’t an ideal course for her in the UK. Some of her friends have parents with bottomless pockets but that is not our position, and I want to be clear about boundaries on the financial side.

I agree that the education may well be excellent but rather brutal. The concept of pastoral care isn’t very well established in French universities. If your DD is used to receiving mitigations for her dyslexia, she would need to enquire ahead whether these are available on the French programme. Even if she has managed well so far, it would be good to get a sense of the workload to think about whether it is realistic for her.

The French believe in giving students enough rope to hang themselves. The opportunity for a superb education is present, but one has to pursue it more independently than in the UK. The programmes I am familiar with have markedly fewer term time requirements than we do here. Everything hangs on difficult end of year exams. If you fail, you get one resit opportunity. I am not positive, but that may be it. If you aren’t able to keep yourself motivated during the year, your academic career can be very short (because the workload is high).

I am sorry if that sounds pessimistic, because I think attending uni in France sounds exciting! But there is much that needs to go right, financially and in other ways, to make this a viable option for your DD.

DD’s former boyfriend did a year at a Grande Ecole for his year abroad. Truly amazing experience. He was ex boarding school and very very bright. Had to get his French up to speed and from what I heard it’s very tough. And that was just one year! These are elite unis and my French friend wax gobsmacked he got a place. However the year abroad might be a safer option.

From what I have gathered about the French education system (both from the teaching style at Lycee and at unis - DS1 is doing a Masters at a Grand Ecole) I think it would be unsuitable for someone who sufferers from anxiety and dyslexia. There are no accommodations and the approach is ruthlessly results-oriented. The culture at Polisci (I think you said that was her possible target ?) is brutal - utterly unlike the U.K. system.

yes, students do need a visa but this just takes boring admin and money - if you get a place it seems you get a visa, anecdotally.

Yes, @Revengeofthepangolins . I agree with you on visas - the worldwide norm is to provide visas when students are admitted to HE

@HonorHiding Sorry this is a bit late, my DD in year 11 has also been strongly considering going to university in France.
From what she's been telling me, French unis seem to be significantly cheaper than in the UK because the French government invest more into education so actually French unis are advantageous on the financial side because you leave with little to no debt in comparison to what you'd leave with in the UK. I believe you do need a student visa at the moment to study in the EU (although there are talks of the UK rejoining Erasmus which may change things) and there's lots of helpful info about this on the French government website, don't use UCAS for this stuff. You can work on a student visa too but the hours are more restrictive than what EU students are allowed.
I'd be so grateful if you could keep me posted on how your DD does if she chooses to go to France! I just want a realistic idea of what it would look like for my DD and if it's worth it. Thanks

You’d have to be able to fund it all yourselves though - fees and living costs - as UK student loans don’t cover you if you go to University abroad - and nor does the Turing Scheme if it’s for a full degree or Masters rather than just a period of study abroad from a UK Uni

@littlemissbiscuit So who does pay then? Are you French? How good is her French? Not all French universities are great either. How would you fund her being in France unless you have trustees there?

@littlemissbiscuit Not all French fees are cheaper - the one DD is looking at would be 14,720 Euros per annum - though locals and EU residents do have greatly preferential terms. But, as has been pointed out, the reason you leave with no debt is that as an international student you (or your parents) pay up front!

Hello @HonorHiding, I am guessing that since starting this thread, your DD will be quite advanced in her application process for prospects given she's about to start Y13?

Apologies if too late in the day for engaging, but if still in research mode, is the niche interest in Arabic more language driven or cultural/Middle Eastern studies biased?

It looks like you have already done the full recce on UK universities on offerings, shame the UCL/SciencePo does not do a ME programme like the Trinity College Dublin/Columbia one, but as you say, one of the fundamental parts of a language biased programme of study is the Year Abroad experience. For that mine considered both alongside options like Canada's McGill but the YA was a deal breaker for her being too valuable to forfeit for a summer type offering alone.

In case you haven't reviewed it, TCD do a multi disciplinary programme that combines all stuff past and current Middle East with an additional European provision, both culture and language. The Arabic year abroad for those combining French and Arabic is in Rabat Morocco, vs the other option of Cairo Egypt for alternative language mixes, full year or semester only shared with a European choice.

No access to UK student finance again, but significantly lower fees (2 - 3k EUR per annum) and full access to Erasmus funding (extending to ME universities via Partner funding). If she's super clever she can sit the Foundation Scholars papers early Y2 for subsequent waiver of fees/accom etc.

If your DD's focus is more language focus, I would not recommend TCD route as Arabic learning doesn't start until Y2, but worth a review if she's looking for a combined integrated programme that mine has thoroughly enjoyed, and entering her 4th year. UK citizens treated same as domestic, visas required for non-UK PP holders.

Good luck to her on her applications!

@poetryandwine

The French believe in giving students enough rope to hang themselves.

If Carlsberg did precis of the French education system that would be it.....

(Opinion based on having put two of our DC through the mill, to Fac level and in one case beyond).....

Hi and thanks for posting @ealingwestmum - yes, she’s pretty set on her applications and her UCAS form is already complete in its first draft. She did look at the option of TCD (her school actually did a big push on getting students in lots of disciplines to look at TCD) but she’s a passionate linguist and couldn’t contemplate waiting until second year to push on with her Arabic. That’s also one of my concerns with the Sciences Po option: the Arabic language is a “minor” there, whereas for her it’s extremely important to achieve fluency and written proficiency in MSA and Levantine Arabic.

She likes Edinburgh very much, and we also think it would suit her well for all sorts of reasons. She’s determined to apply to Sciences Po, but understands that she needs a scholarship if she is to go there. We will see what happens!