St Andrew's - has it changed?

[earlyr1ser]

Middle son is thinking about switching out one of his UCAS choices for St Andrews. He's planning to do a maths degree. In many ways I think it would suit him - he'd like the coastal setting, would enjoy the breadth of curriculum that Scottish universities can offer - but I don't think he would enjoy the atmosphere that prevailed at St A's back in the mid-nineties, when I was a student.

I studied elsewhere, but I had a close friend at St A's and visited a few times. TBF few people get to choose where they are sent to school, but middle son is not public-school educated and would not have fitted in around the people who dominated the St A's social scene in those days, nor would he necessarily have had the confidence and savvy to carve out an alternative niche for himself (to those who did - well done).

All advice welcome! Thank you.

Well, one significant change is the very high number of Americans. Having four years, with the associated costs, is I think always going to incline the RUK application pool towards a more wealthy demographic, irrespective of school type.

If that’s the case about RUK applicants, it will apply equally to every Scottish uni.

Though I agree with your comments about the large number of American students . This has pushed up house prices, among other things, and increased the number of students repeating years at undergrad level.

@earlyr1ser I’d advise your son to go on a visits, perhaps for a family weekend away than just on open day. That might allay your fears to some extent.

Has your son looked at the course content, options, teaching/ assessment methods and student satisfaction for each of the courses he is considering ?

Has he considered Aberdeen if St Andrews has too much of that feeling?
It ticks the same ancient campus vibe, is small and friendly and by the sea.
We were pleasantly surprised by it. Hadn't expected it to be so pretty.

My son is at Glasgow and struggling to feel he fits in - state school, Scottish. He’s thinking about swapping but I’ve said to him best to rule out St A’s and Edi if he feels like that about Glasgow!

We’ve just been for a wander round the campus. Heard a lot of American accents and the town was jam packed for some golf event. It really is a small town, so the student life must make up a lot of what goes on there. I’m not sure how DS would get on, we are peasant people.

They tend to find their tribe. My eldest is at a university with a similar reputation (although not so many Americans) and they all find their people. You may already be aware but accommodation costs are very high at St Andrews. Supply/demand is a big issue there.

That’s a shame , please encourage him to join lots of clubs and societies to widen his social circle . He should also speak to his tutor and contact student support.

If you think he has mental health issues or may be depressed, he should see a doctor asap.

If he’s not unwell, this is almost certainly about him not finding his tribe or making friends yet and not actually to do with everyone else being privately educated. Is he is halls or in a flat ?

It’s VERY hard to swap unis , they only allow it in very unusual circumstances. He would probably need to leave, pay back SAAS and then reapply . he would have to convince his next uni that he wasn’t going to do the same thing again.

It’s not a simple thing to do .

There are 4,000 overseas undergrad students at Glasgow and most of the first years are probably feeling more lost than he is.

And there’s 22,000 undergraduates in total , they can’t all be from private schools !

so please support him to dig in where he is and make it work for him.

I say this as a parent of 3 state educated kids at Scottish unis.

My two went, now in their thirties, not privately educated, both really enjoyed their time and made lasting groups of friends, the majority but not all from state schools. If in uni accommodation in first year I think they are careful about creating mixed groups.
Would definitely suit someone who didn’t want a large anonymous city setting. Masses of different clubs and societies, has a ‘parent’ system (first years matched with third or fourth year student) which helps build a network, great place to visit them. Extremely expensive accommodation but both mine got part time work easily.

The prospect of spending four years n the middle of nowhere with loads of posh people and wealthy Americans cos Kate and Wills…..eeeshhh.

It is curious that english students tend to mostly o ly look at Edinburgh and St A. I don’t think St A looms as large for Scottish students. Also worth noting that the offer rates for RUK students at St A are not high, so worth factoring in.

My child is at StA. As a poster says above, they find their tribe and like usually calls to like. They have made a variety of friends, all currently from the UK, none of whom bother about whether state or private and none are “posh”! Yes, there are some rich Americans and Oxbridge rejects but you’ll get that at any highly ranked Uni. They also tend to use the catered halls (mine is self catered). The number of tourists can be a bit annoying as they walk in groups and block the pavements! And accommodation costs are high and can be difficult but so can other places. The town is small but Dundee and Edinburgh are close by.
For certain subjects, it’s one of the best, if not The best, Unis you can go to, the lecturers and staff are generally top notch and student support is also excellent.
My DC doesn’t do the Balls type socials, but joins in lots of other activities.

Thanks very much, I’ve said all this to him so at least we are doing all the right thing things! He spoke to the dr this week I don’t think he’s depressed as such as overwhelmed and catastrophising that he’s never going to find his tribe. I also said to him re student support/counselling - they run zoom calls and webinars on this kind of stuff so it’s clearly not just him feeling like he is. He’s joined clubs and societies but meeting people in lectures etc is hard due to numbers.

I must admit though I thought swapping wouldn’t be that difficult as it seems to be not an uncommon thing to do and they can have 5 years SAAS funding. He would just go via UCAS again to the courses/unis he had unconditionals for this year. But I agree he needs to not rush into anything time passes anyway so he should try and make the best of it and reassess.

St A was great. 6yrs ago attended. Easy to fit in. Lots to do. Loads of good fun. Small tutorial groups. Student halls v good. Then found a private let in the estate within easy walking distance to town. Scottish, English and international students. From a non private school education. We hear that Glasgow uni is harder to fit in , can be clique. You are basically stuck in St A which means everyone gets close and become like family. A very positive experience.

Thank you so much for all of your replies. Times have clearly changed, because if they hadn't, there would have been a defensive barrage of "my DC went to public school and it makes not one whit of difference to their social circle", "university is entirely what you make of it" and other variants of "plebs, know your place". Which have been mercifully absent. Thanks again, all.

Around 36% from private schools at StA: that’s high BUT the majority are from state school. They cannot be that difficult to find and what’s wrong with mixing anyway? After uni, work colleagues might be privately educated. You cannot run away forever. Glasgow is not in top 20 for privately educated students. Leeds is number 20 with 17% so it’s less than that at Glasgow. So finding like minded friends should not be that difficult.

DD graduated from St As this year. She came from a(fairly deprived) Scottish state school. Her friend group was a mixture of international students (none American), and UK (including other Scottish students) - some from private schools and some from state. She enjoyed her time and did go to the balls - or at least the after parties! The really posh students have their own circles. Accommodation can be expensive although they were ‘lucky’ to find a fairly grotty house to rent for the last 2 years which wasn’t too expensive by St Andrews standards. Edinburgh and Dundee are very accessible and there are good transport links. Free bus travel to all under 22 year olds is also a plus.

My sister went to Edinburgh uni and almost dropped out in the first term as she felt it was completely swamped with very loud, confident private school educated people. It took her a while to find her tribe and notice the quieter more reserved types. It is possibly the same at Glasgow. I would advise him to stick it out a bit longer. It’s still very early days, and people settle and become less over the top after the second term. I’m sure he’ll make some friends and feel a bit more settled soon. If not then he can make that decision once he knows he’s given it a good shot.

By swapping, do you means “ dropping out and starting the same course elsewhere next year “ ? Im assuming that’s what you mean and not “ completing first year and then applying to move to another uni for the same course for second year “.

No it’s not easy to drop out and reapply , lots of courses won’t accept anyone who has started the course elsewhere and not completed it. Some of them even state that in the entry requirements.

Unis get evaluated on things like dropout rates , so to be blunt no one wants someone else’s drop out. Of course it’s a different matter if it’s to do with illness or disability.

Yes he can apply through UCAS next year but who will he use as an Academic referee , it can’t be his school, is he going to ask the uni he dropped out of ? How is he going to explain why he left - because he couldn’t make friends or because he didn’t like the schools that other students went to ? That’s just as likely to happen in another uni next year - what will be different ?

Unis don't like it because he’s wasted a place that could have gone to someone else and they will lose that money from SAAS. They work hard to support students so they stay and hopefully do well.

SAAS don’t like it because they have to try and get a terms money back from your son. Yes you can usually get a years extra funding , a plus one year , but it’s not automatic or a free gift. Your son can look on the SAAS website for info on the conditions attached to the his loan / allowance and the rules about not making sufficient progress on the course or withdrawing and paying back his loan. He will need to pay back any over payment for this year, based on his last date of attendance.

It’s not just the money - it’s the effect it will have on his confidence and self esteem.

Dropping out is a serious decision that could have negative consequences for him - it’s not like starting piano lessons and then quitting after a few weeks . It’s only something he should consider after exhausting all other options - especially if he likes the course and it’s just that he’s not made friends yet.

Of course if he’s ill or struggling with the course or his health then he needs to ask for help. I’m not saying he needs to just suck it up . But it should be the last resort if he’s tried everything else, not the first option if it’s not all amazing by week 4 of term 1.

Im sorry if I sound unsympathetic, I’m trying to be supportive. I know not easy as a parent to strike the right balance with support and advice.

Thank you - I don’t disagree on most of what you say, but I gathered that changing course/uni is not that unusual.

School will do the UCAS reference.

He’d be applying for both y1 and y2 entry if he decided to as he has the exam results for y2 entry already at the uni he would apply to.

I’d rather he settled and stayed where he is but ultimately it’s his life, he’s only 18 and it’s not going to be doomed because he picked the wrong uni at 18

I know you're on here a lot, Tizer, and you've usually got some good info. 36% is useful to know, so thanks for that. And it's also fair to point out that in the end, students have to work with all kinds of people.

But I'd like to ask you to think about the tone that you used. "What's wrong with mixing anyway?" - comes over as dismissive of the very real concerns that many parents have. I'm certain that many people on here could give some accounts of bullying from wealthier children that they or their children have experienced. It does happen. I could tell you some horror stories from Oxford (Wadham College, Eng Lit 1993-1996) in the 1990s, but this is not about me, so I won't.

"You cannot run away forever" - likewise - sounds as though you are presuming a position of authority, as if talking to a child. It's the type of tone I would expect from a person who doesn't want to understand the point of view of other people, as per my earlier post. It's not helpful and it creates needless hostility. We don't need more of that, do we?

Tbf, perhaps Tizer doesn’t like the idea of children going to university keen to settle in and find friends only to discover that others assume them to be ghastly and to be avoided for reasons that are nothing to do with their personal qualities or behaviour, which might colour her tone?

I am sure that isn’t what you mean but some defensiveness is not a surprising reaction.

University places are the result of years of dedicated study, and it is a terrible thing to get there and be shunned for reasons that have nothing to do with your character.

You are right in that anyone is vulnerable to being bullied if they do not share the same culture as the majority. I felt awful for a boy from public school who joined my son's comprehensive sixth form and had to leave after one year, as he was ostracised.

In the equally-bad old days, though, it was not the privately-educated students who were laughed at and excluded in places like St A's. A dominant culture can be harmful to people who don't belong to it, simple as. Young people cannot develop resilience in an atmosphere of continuous belittlement. It's ugly in the lecture theatres, and it is ugly on here.

It's kind of spooky, as well, that "Slender Rations" posts the same things, in the same language, that Tizer used to before she was laughed off the platform. Will the real slim shady please stand up?*

*reference to Eminem, a musician chap from the States. Probably does not know how to hold a fork properly.

And no, Tizer-Slender, before you hit me with your "stalking" riposte, no need to stalk - you're everywhere. I'm not here to have a fight, however. I'm here for good-faith advice on what it is like to study at St Andrew's. Thank you for your advice, and have a good day.

My niece is at StA and loves it. She went to a comp in southern England. She’s definitely found her tribe, and fwiw she has ADHD and is a little quirky although super bright.