Ds wobbling about insurance choice.

[Leniriefenstahl]

He’s an early applicant as his aspirational choice is Cambridge for maths. Visited Durham and Warwick which he really liked. We were very impressed by the organisation of the open days but also the enthusiasm and engagement of the students, really helpful, enthusiastic and approachable. Lots around to help and point us in the right direction, answer questions etc, particularly in the halls of residences and also taking part in the subject lectures.
Yesterday visited potential insurance if he underperforms and although the campus was probably the nicest we’d seen, the organisation was meh and lacklustre. We asked a couple of students for help getting somewhere, they either didn’t know or frankly couldn’t be bothered. He’s now thinking of swapping this choice. On paper it’s a decent uni but we feel kind of disappointed. Not sure whether that’s justified
though ?

I think that might be a bit unfair. The student helpers at Open Days are given various amounts of briefing, and those who are paid to help will probably be more engaged than those who are volunteers... The days are normally run by Marketing rather than academic departments, and reflect the budget allocated to that function!

Open Days give a really distorted view of a uni in my opinion. Offer Holder Days are more important (smaller groups concentrating on one area), but that's too late for decisions.

HE has 5 choices. Cambridge is incredibly competitive, so really, he should have two other choices he would consider.
Open days don’t always tell the whole story- sometimes student ambassadors are not enthusiastic- doesn’t mean the university isn’t good. Was the subject talk good? Did you speak to students and staff there?

Some unis do a cracking open day but are less good to actually attend.

Some unis are great to attend but the open day isn't so slick.

I wouldn't be confusing the two.

Thanks and some decent points.
We’ve seen 5 unis over the last 8 weekends. Sadly this uni was the last one so I guess we’re a bit uni oversaturated lol 😂

Open Days can be useful but only as one of a series of information inputs. My DC found chats with staff and students in their subject area the most useful; was your DS able to do that? Were the unenthusiastic helpers within the department or more general guides stationed around the campus? If the latter, then that is much less of an issue.

Most universities have an online chat function so you can ask specific questions of current students in your chosen subject area. If it was the Lancaster Open Day you and your DS attended, then they certainly offer that (on their website and via Unibuddy).

More generally, is the concern actually about the enthusiasm of particular helpers or are there other, underlying sentiments? Best to flush those out rather than fixate on proxy concerns in advance of attempts to switch about UCAS choices.

Hello, OP -

I am a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor. I think the advice above and your own diagnosis of oversaturation are likely good, and accurate.

DS need not put all of his choices down at once, so he put down Cambridge, Warwick and Durham now and think further about the other two choices. I do believe strongly that he needs an offer no higher than A star A A, and preferably AAA, that he feels enthusiastic about.

One thing he could do is join the online undergraduate forum The Student Room. There he can pose questions directly to current UGs. The discussions are generally thoughtful.

Some SoMs that seem to me like good Insurance choices for very strong applicants include Bath, Lancaster, Edinburgh and Glasgow. Glasgow Maths did extremely well in the last Research Assessment Framework, coming tops in Scotland and well within the top 10 in the UK. Lancaster was also a UK top 10. These are both breakthroughs, but both SoMs have very good histories with Teaching and Learning and student satisfaction. High satisfaction plus research vitality is a potent combination for strong students.

Sheffield and Manchester are also possibilities. Sheffield has excellent student satisfaction and plenty of strong individual researchers; overall, its student body and staff research impact are not quite at the same level. But honestly, for undergraduates that matters much, much less than the ability to get a great education and Sheffield clearly offers this. Manchester overall has stronger students and staff, but lower student satisfaction.

Thinking about whether he wants a campus or a city university may also help to clarify DS’ choices.

Was it Nottingham?

I would suggest reframing the whole list of insurance options by going right back down to the brass tacks of the places. Look at the subject page on the website, read about the academic staff and their interests / specialities. Look up their clubs list, look at what is available in the nearest town / city in terms of arts and entertainment. We live at a huge distance (6000 miles currently) and while my two kids were able to visit recently and take in a few open days and visits on non-open days, their choices have largely been on what is available to them in terms of courses and progression to further study.

Absolutely get what you’re saying. It was actually Notts uni. DS has since read about it being a party/sporty jock kind of uni. This kind of fitted in with the lack of interest, too cool vibe we got but I agree we are being very unfairly judgemental. It was actually a toss up with York. His main worry was that FM isn’t a requirement and that the first year was spent bringing everyone up to the same standard. The prof we spoke to reassured us it wouldn’t affect him but he’s kind of worried it won’t be challenging enough (not meant to be big headed though I appreciate it sounds like that).

U of Notts was my other thought about where it be; the campus is nice. It does have a strong Maths department and whilst FM is not a requirement, if I remember rightly, offers are slightly reduced if applying with FM, so they are keen to attract students with FM.

When one of my DC was looking at Maths, unis like Notts typically had c.50% with FM. Those without FM obviously do catch up in first year but it will be at a terrific pace and, as the Prof says, your DS is unlikely to be spinning his wheels. You could ask the question as to FM proportion, if it was a concern. What I like about Notts maths is that you can specialise in pure, stats or applied maths to quite a large extent from Y2 if you wish.

Thanks for that. Did your DC go to Notts in the end ?

We went to the Notts open day last year and had a very difference experience, in fact the students were one of the reasons why it went to the top of DD's list.
She is there now and loved it, she isn't very sporty but has joined a casual team. She enjoys socialising but again not a part of the "party crowd" The Freshers are hardly out of Welcome week and a lot of them are still enjoying Uni life a bit too much according to DD so were probably not really up for being very helpful yesterday
It IS know for being sporty but also for Science

@Leniriefenstahl that DC actually chose a different path (L7 accountancy apprenticeship) but uni was viable alternative and so they took the Open Days and other research seriously, as your DS is very sensibly doing also. Maths is a fantastic and very flexible degree subject - best wishes to your DS over the coming months. Good to hear positive things about Nottingham from others.

@Hoppinggreen and @PerpetualOptimist thank you.

If it didn't feel right, then don't select it as an insurance. My daughter was absolutely set on Sheffield, and then we visited Leeds and something just felt so right, in the way the Warwick felt so wrong for my youngest son. My oldest son ended up at his insurance. On results day he was disappointed for about ten minutes, and then got over himself and was perfectly happy to be going to his insurance, as he'd chosen somewhere he felt comfortable with.

If he wants a nerdy kind of place go to a campus uni in a small boring town.

@poetryandwine if they put down three on paper and submit the ucas form, is there a further charge to add another two on later?

I don’t think so, @NCTDN . Your YP could post this question to the online forum The Student Room for an up to date answer

Not every school offers further maths so it’s difficult to make it a requirement. He should apply to 5 that he likes and see where he gets offers and what the offers are and then based on that choose a firm and insurance choice.
if he doesn’t get those choices there is clearing/ reapplying so no need to include one he doesn’t like with the expectation of it requiring lower grades

I asked this question to DC's school a few days ago and was told no extra charge.

Thank you @PartoftheBand

I don’t know how Nottingham handle the further maths issue but we visited Exeter this weekend. They have one module in the first year which is designed to get those student up to date and is called ‘optional revision’ for those who did further maths but have not used their maths brain all summer. If he doesn’t get the grades he is predicted and ends up at an insurance it will be no bad thing to have some breathing space in the first term to get used to living independently.

Hi @Leniriefenstahl I know you said Cambridge was the aspirational choice, but just be aware if he does get an offer it puts him in a uniquely difficult position to pick an insurance choice! This happened to my DD last year - she had a maths offer from Cambridge and was predicted top a-level grades but wasn’t sure how she would do on STEP.

Should she pick a lower insurance and risk missing a place on one of the top maths courses if she got her a-levels but missed STEP? Or should she pick an insurance like Warwick but then not have any leeway on her a-levels?

In the end she risked it and picked an insurance which needed 2 A stars and an A. She didn’t get the STEP grade but got her predicted a-levels so got into her insurance and it worked out well in the end. But it’s a stressful choice to make because having to pass STEP means you can’t really choose your insurance in the normal way. The way Cambridge maths offers work is hugely stressful, I wish they would test in advance! Anyway sorry for the essay 😊 and good luck to your DS!

I agree they should do step in advance like many other admissions tests. The other issue is accommodation. If you have to take your insurance offer you may have missed the deadline for being guaranteed a place in university accommodation. You are also less likely to get first choice of accommodation which may mean paying more.
I think the problems with accommodation vary, was Warwick helpful @Ermengarde?