Trinity Dublin verus Bath, Warwick, UCL etc..... Can you help?

[Rarily]

Hello
Can you help? My daughter has got A levels and has done well enough to study Maths at Bath or possibly at Warwick / UCL. I believe these are excellent places for Maths.
We are heading to Trinity in Dublin for an open day - we have Irish connections as a family and she wanted to look there too.
I am not sure how to advise her. I don't want her to be 'trapped' into feeling pressured to go to the universities that reflect her grades - Trinity requires a "B' in Maths and she has A* and A in Further maths.
Does any of you know how Ireland / England universities compare? Any thoughts particularly if you are a mathematician I'd really appreciate. I have lectured in universities, but in nursing, so it's a completely different world where connections and institutions don't impact so much on career paths..... Thank you!

Trinity Dublin is the most esteemed university in the ROI. It’s rich in history, it has a great location, overall it has a good worldwide reputation.

STEM is not a particular academic or research strength and Maths is no exception. However DD is considering her undergraduate degree, for which this is less of a concern.

Undergraduates need staff who can teach core material well. The best can benefit from exposure to strong researchers, but this tends to be a trade off. (This is why the top four year colleges in America are about as competitive as the Ivy League - they offer a superb education.)

If DD is really enthusiastic about Trinity, I would encourage her to research the Teaching and Learning programme online. I don’t know whether the online forum The Student Room covers universities in the ROI? If so that would be a good place to start. She needs to learn about how the School of Maths functions for the more able students.

She also needs to learn about careers for holders of Trinity maths degrees. Then of course there is the question of finances.

As a former STEM admissions tutor (Russell Group) I generally think that when it is practical, students should follow their instincts. A good fit is important and can make all the difference.

I would just add (because @poetryandwine has done a pretty comprehensive job here) that accommodation is notoriously expensive and thin on the ground in Dublin (but also in Bath). And I would take that "B" with a pinch of salt. If it is written as a "minimum" req then its likely they will have plenty of applicants with a higher grade than that.

We contacted them about psychology and they immediately said "heavily over subscribed course, you can apply but we recommend you apply for 2 other courses just in case"

I can’t help you with the quality of the Maths course or how competitive their students end up vs the elite UK universities OP, but if you look at 2023 CAO points for Maths (minimum 589 points) the equivalent A levels would need to have achieved A STAR level across 3/4 subjects with extra 25 bonus points on sitting Maths A/FM to be anywhere near a place offer which could have also been subject to lottery if over-subscribed as they cap place numbers. Similar entry levels for Maths JH.

Pretty much the same story for most courses if coming from UK system, students need to achieve more than they would for Oxbridge/Imperial etc, so students are amongst a bright cohort if accepting a TCD offer (but there’s no STEP I don’t think). But I cannot comment if it’s a better Maths option vs UK, my daughter is studying a humanities course which is competes well with its UK counterparts.

The success rate on students across all subjects achieving internships and year work placements is high, anecdotally across DD’s cohort from what I can see.

Good luck with the decision making, enjoy the Open Day!

Is your DD taking 4 A levels? 3 A stars give 555 points and she would need 589 to be considered.

Well done on your DD. Do take a look at the admission requirements on the uni course pages also typical grades that students have (I think this is on what uni or the UCAS website) as that will help. Warwick is definitely A star A star in maths and fmaths and then another A - and they aren’t flexible. There are many other great courses for maths that don’t require A star in fmaths. Bath is well regarded for sure! Also has the advantage of great links with employers for afterwards. Someone we know very happy at Exeter doing maths and being very supported. Maybe look at the latest Sunday times league table for maths to give you some more direction - obvs take them with a bit of a pinch of salt but deffo helps!

The Irish system specifies minimum standards. They're not typical offers, because Irish universities don't make offers in the way British ones do. The most highly qualified students are offered places once results are in.

That B in maths means that even if you are highly competitive otherwise, you don't get in without a B in maths. In practice successful applicants will almost certainly have higher grades in maths and across the board.

There are also additional points for EPQ and 4th A level.

You can apply alongside UCAS and then decide which way to go at the last minute.

As you are grades in hand UK unis will give an unconditional offer (or rejection) before May. However do your research thoroughly as some UK maths courses don't like gap year applications.

With Ireland you apply and have to wait until 28 Aug 2025 when all results are in as they fill up with students with the highest points.

Under Admission Requirements on the TCD website - You can see on these links:

"GCSE A Levels" - where you can add up your points (A levels, EPQ, AS level etc)

https://www.tcd.ie/study/apply/admission-requirements/undergraduate/#cao

and

"Minimum CAO points tab" - the lowest points accepted over the last 10 years.

https://www.tcd.ie/study/apply/admission-requirements/undergraduate/#cao

You can then look into accomodation and financing and decide at the end of Aug next year if it works out or if she wants to take the UK place which she will have by then.

@Rarily I think the first thing to mention about TCD, is that there is no student finance available. This may or may not be an issue for your family.@ealingwestmum was incredibly helpful in all of her advice after my DC decided to take the place offered in August. The place was to read a humanities. They turned down a place at UCL in favour of TCD.. the degree career paths after a degree at TCD are incredibly vibrant. Most of the major international companies are headquartered in Dublin because of the favourable corporation tax rates so whilst competitive gaining access to internships, etc is possible. The halls at Trinity Hall around £140 per week. These halls are around half an hour to 40 minutes into uni. The other privately run halls known as Kavanagh Court are circa £240 per week. These rooms however are much more modern and have en suites in each. The Trinity hall rooms are somewhat dated And it is no cheaper if you were offered a shared room and your DD would be more likely to get a room in Trinity if she volunteers to share. The Kavanagh court rooms much nearer to uni (a15 minute walk) but in a much less salubrious area. you can pay the halls on a monthly basis. You need to be aware that degrees are four years not three but TCD runs on a two semester system which means your DC will be done and dusted for the academic year by the start of May. There is plenty of time to do internships and money over the summer, etc. Obviously the one big advantage of TCD is the actual tuition fee cost which was €3000 per annum but I think I’m right in saying that got reduced to €2000 in the Irish government budget yesterday.

DC Is having a whale of a time and because of the household Avios account getting to and from Dublin has so far only cost us a pound each each time! They are booked to come home during reading week later this month and also at Christmas. I think the Kavanagh court agreement for rental of the room is around 38 weeks. You can of course choose to stay for years 2,3 and four in Kavanagh Court. Other posters are quite correct, that the housing situation in Dublin is pretty limited regardless of whether or not you are a student

The actual course is incredibly academic and probably on a par with Oxbridge with the amount of work that is expected of each student.

Other points to note is that there are only really pubs open to 18-year-olds at the weekend as Most of the clubs are 21 years plus. The tram system known as the Luas is capped for students at €11 per week which is an absolute bargain for unlimited travel! Lots of English students choose Trinity so they won’t be on their own.

That is my understanding too.
My (probably a bit out of date!) view is that Trinity is in a different league to the other two. All very good universities, but Trinity is pretty top drawer.

@Rarily just to add that if your DD is not offered round one place, the offer date this year for round two came after the deadline for acceptance of the UCAS place. Your DD will know whether or not she has been allocated a hall of residence before round one but it is not guaranteed. My DC was lucky in getting a round one offer and then a room at KC subsequently.

It is also important to note that if the course is oversubscribed, and the round one points score required for your DD course is higher than usual she may not receive an offer. However, you can choose up to 10 courses on the form. Your DD should make sure she applies for arrange of point scoring places and courses. They will automatically offer the course which she qualifies for with her amount of points. hope that makes sense? So for example if Maths is 570 and your daughter has 569 she may not get offered the place even if previous years the points required has been 565. It all depends on the results of the Irish system in the academic year. A bit like how the Grade boundaries work in the A-level system.

With UK courses you are not held to anything contractually (ie fees) until 2 weeks into the start of term. So you can accept your UK place on results day / or before if grades in hand - clearing is open until 21st Oct and students often swap about at this stage if there are places.

I dont know when the 2nd and 3rd round offers at TCD go out - maybe they are all filled on first round for the most competitive courses anyway.

Dont know if you would be held for accomodation costs at UK halls - so would need to check the T&Cs closely.

They also need a GCSE pass in a foreign language (grade 5 or above I think?) regardless of the degree applied for.

Echoing @OnceAndFutureMum here. Irish universities don't have offer grades in the way UK ones do.

That B will be a bare minimum requirement, and with the way the points system works anyone who gets on the course will have substantially higher grades.

This year, the Round 1 points level for Mathematics at Trinity was 589* (the star meaning not everyone on that score got in). Using the A level point conversion below, you can see that your daughter would have needed 3 A Stars and an A to get in (185 x 3 = 555 + 38 for A in fourth A level = 593).

Just a little bit to add here as a current TCD Mum. Mine loves TCD, but is not doing Maths. Campus is pretty and central, but most sports are out a bit.

UCL, Bath and Warwick- congratulations to her, lucky girl. Is she looking at Cambridge/Oxford too? STEM is not considered strong at TCD, but the place has cachet and the big employers like it (and other Irish Unis eg UCD etc- Tesco's CEO Ken Murphy is a UCC graduate). However Maths there is a very high tariff subject, maybe because the class numbers are small (40) and I'm not sure how many are Irish, if that matters- lots of US students at TCD.

She really needs to check out the modules, and ideally speak to the Dept. Is she looking at Joint Honours?

Accommodation and funding are the big challenges. No loans possible so you are entirely self-funded, and Dublin private accommodation is in crisis with kids commuting crazy distances because they cannot find or else afford rent. You'll need a good plan B because accommodation is not guaranteed for first years except the non-EU/UK ones who are paying ++. Factor in that at weekends, Irish students mostly live at home in Dublin suburbs and stay there, or go home at weekends, and the US ones fly around Europe.

The fees at Trinity Halls (where my student did stay) are a bit higher than stated above, maybe because they forgot to add the utility charge per month. It's all on the TCD website. The shared rooms are cheaper, and mostly chosen by the US students, (although US students seemed to be mostly in Kavanagh). Halls rooms are all ensuite, and although it's a long walk/bus/Luas in, in a far nicer area that Kavanagh.

It's very hard to compare Irish and UK Unis, anyone can do well in any of them. Good luck with the open day!

👋 Hello fellow TCD parent! Any tips for accommodation years 2,3 or 4?

@Friendshipgroup , it will be fine, but a lot of nerve holding and financial back up is needed. OP, you may want to factor this in.

Year 2:
Many Halls students ended up in the Point student accommodation with people they met in Halls (mostly non- Dublin Irish; there weren't many UK students there). Luas is very near by, but it's not, in my opinion, a great area for students: mostly businesses so streets are quite lonely at night, although usually someone to come home with. The full annual fee has to be paid upfront (!) but I have heard that you can get out of it as long as you find an acceptable replacement. Booking for 2025/6 is not open yet. The US students seem to stay at Kavanagh (which they irritatingly mis-spell, and mispronounce no doubt, ' Kavanaugh- Kav-an-aw'), Cork Street or other D7 and D8 student accommodation, which is more intercollegiate and mixed years than Halls which are Freshers only. Quite similar to say London Uni set ups.

For private accommodation, best to keep an eye on the market, but there isn't really a student house churn like here, so places aren't available pre-Christmas for 2025, like at several UK Unis. In reality, expect to start looking properly April or so, move very quickly, and to pay annualised rent (inc over the summer). Many landlords will expect full year's payment upfront unless you have an Irish guarantor.

As with the UK, friendships and preferences flux, so committing to Year 2 arrangements early is a folly methinks.

Year 3: If very lucky, because they barely award any, Schols (sat in 2nd year) comes with an on-campus room (possibly a set, and crusty!). 60 ish places out of 3000 U/Gs. Some do Erasmus, so are away all year or for 1 of the 2 semesters, so there are regular calls to offer or request. I've read that some students see Erasmus as a way of avoiding the 3rd year accommodation problems as well as a nice year away.

Year 4: Notionally prioritised for on-campus rooms, but again not enough to go around, and offered so late that you'll have already booked and paid for the alternative. But we'll be hoping for this!

I'm sure your daughter will work it all out, whilst we pedal like mad in the background making it all work! I hope she's enjoying herself, sounds like they have great weather at the moment. Suggest she gets out to Howth, Malahide, Dalkey, Sandycove or Bray on the Dart, or Bull Island (bus) while it holds fine, so she can better appreciate the wider area. Also suggest she watches out for the Race trips and other social events, that book out quickly. I hope she has a fabulous time.

@Mamiac and @Friendshipgroup - do you know if you can get into Kavanagh for 2nd year if you were lucky enough to get into Trinity Halls for first year?

Also is the process that you apply (as a UK student) first to TH and if you dont get in on the ballot you still have a chance with Kavanagh for first year - or would that all be too late and its advisable to leapfrog straight to Kavanagh?

I think @ealingwestmum has her DD in KC for year 2?

The accommodation team are clear that you cannot be on both waiting lists. DC applied (and failed) to get TH at the time of submitting the application. Then got KC after gaining a place. I’d say you would be more likely to get KC from the outset but it is more expensive and although we nearer to Uni it is in a less salubrious area. There are also less freshers.

Thanks so much for the info. Much appreciated

Sorry read your message properly now. I defer to @ealingwestmum knowledge on this.

Yes, I believe @ealingwestmum is the Kav specialist.
I believe priority is given to those who stay on, then they backfill with freshers. But it's Ireland- just call Kav and check!

If you aren't allocated Halls, you can ask to be added to the waiting list that does move a tiny bit apparently (you're not even told your place), but with days to go or even after they start (anecdotally).

One thing to be very clear about is that if even allocated Halls, and that seemed to be particularly hard this year, the offer is contingent on a CAO Round 1 offer in very late August for a mid- September start.

As CAO places are allocated by course demand, based on points achieved, unless you already have or expect to be well clear of historic boundaries, you may have a Uni place but no accommodation.

The whole Irish thing is quite last minute compared to the UK. But if you know this ahead, and remember Ireland's a different country and culture, you'll learn to love the relaxed ' ah sure..' friendliness and flexibility.

Hello all. @Glooop it’s a tricky one because we were not prepared to take the risk of waiting until after TH decision to then try and get a KC room, mainly because this was post covid and CAO offers were due 8 Sept, quite late to swing a contingency and KC does fill up. We’ve known students from UK ‘only’ apply to TH, receive a R1 offer and still not be given a room. So personal risk choice.

KC definitely give priority to returners so if your student is able to stomach Mountjoy area then at least the option is there. Some of the other private sites require 51 weeks vs 38 so look at the T&Cs. Maybe as my name implies, the area isn’t as deemed as rough for mine because she’s used to it!

Completely agree with @Mamiac on Y3 YA options, it really is a great way to get off campus and study elsewhere for a year at hopefully much lower cost, unless your YP chooses US. in fact all of their post DD would concur with!

Hoping your DC has settled well @Friendshipgroup and learnt to toggle between TH and KC well with their new friendship groups!

All good. Currently hosting a SCD and fajitas night. Now the value in the family VPN subscription can be realised 😂