Worth applying to Oxford without the predicted grades?

[redblonde]

I think I know the answer to this but thought I'd double check. My daughter is keen on Chrmistry at Oxford which has entry grades of A star A star A. Her predicted grade is currently hovering around A star AA, with possibility of A star A star A - school still deciding. If if does come down to one A star is it even with applying? I'm guessing not?

Even if she is likely to achieve her predicted grades, the most likely outcome for any Oxbridge (and probably imperial too) applicant is that they won't get an offer.

The only absolute certainty is that if you don't apply you won't get a place.
So long as her other 4 choices are realistic and she's happy with those courses/unis then what is there to lose? At the end of the day they just need 2 offers they're happy with for firm and insurance.

No sorry. I'm pretty sure it would be a complete waste of an application. I've taught at Oxford and done admissions for a long time. In my own subject we would never shortlist/interview someone without the required predicted grades and I'm 99% sure that this is true for other subjects too.

Sorry, just read your update (I really should read the thread first, but was keen to correct some of the other responses). My statement that I was 99% sure it would be a waste was based on not having the required predicted grades.

By the way, at least half of our successful candidates get less than their predicted grades. But normally that doesn't matter as they were predicted more than the minimum required.

I don't understand this statement. On average the international student success rate is lower than for UK students, so the actual success rate for UK students is better than the "headline" rate. The foundation year student numbers are absolutely tiny and they have no guarantee of progressing. I don't think they are included in the overall numbers but it is pretty irrelevant!

And GCSEs. At least as important as predicted A-levels as they are not produced by the school!

My sibling did Chemistry at Oxford University.
Back then he had all A stars at GCSEs and A Levels.
A personal statement and an interview.
The grades are the easy bits so if you don't have that you likely won't get a chance to participate in what really matters which is the interview.

Just to add - he did have to do some sort of test for them - can't remember what it was called though. Things might've changed now.

Oxford say there is no additional test. However they really do not just select on A levels. They interview around 50% of chemistry applicants.. it’s highly likely nearly all rejected have the A level predictions or grades in hand. Their web page says what they look for. They will look at PS and GCSE profile.

Just to add - he did have to do some sort of test for them - can't remember what it was called though. Things might've changed now.

Iirc (which I may not!) the chemists used to do a 'Thinking Skills Assesment' of some sort . But it seems pretty clear on their website that they don't now

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/guide/admissions-tests

There is no harm in applying because it isn’t much extra work. It means an earlier application, but that can be a bit of a relief.

Last year DS had 2 rounds of interviews for Chem at Oxford and they were harrowing. He didn’t get an offer but I think he’s happy he tried.

If she takes a decision to apply, then do.

At least she will know the outcome and does not look back with an ‘if only’.

Have great other choices.

Prepare and support her through a process where the outcome will be the best uni for her ( rather than thinking about the process in a negative way, not making it or being rejected)

I think you are possibly underestimating what an Oxford interview actually is. Firstly they are long and intense, in comparison to other uni interviews, which are more like chats.

When I sat mine, a section was actually working through multiple exam questions whilst being watched by the interviewers and quizzed about my approach and decisions whilst completing the questions. None of the exam questions I tackled were on the A-level syllabus, although they had roots in topics I had studied. They were designed to see if an applicant can expand and extrapolate knowledge beyond what is taught.

I sat for Material Science, which also doesn't have a formal exam. I asked why at some point and my tutor told me they felt they got to understand an applicant much better by seeing and quizzing them on their approach than just being marking papers from a distance. And they felt like not giving applicants topics to revise, like for an exam, they got a better understanding of their ability to retain and use new information quickly

What I would say also is think about the Oxford Chemistry course too. It's taught in a very traditional way with no year abroad or year in industry. Ds was more excited about the IC course but wouldn't have turned down an offer if he'd received one from Oxford, mainly because of the college system.

@Butterflyfern Only around 50% are interviewed too. No interview at all if you don’t make the cut.

My DD got an offer from Oxford back in the day for another subject. At that time, no test. Except they did. It was part of the interview. So no prep time. She was then questioned on it. They want to see how you work things out and challenge you. Chemistry admission isn’t just A levels.

Afaik it is, and always had been, an integrated masters course (proper 4 year, final year research project not Oxbridge 'fake MA'!) .
I'm a PhD chemist with nearly 40 years industry experience and I'm inclined to think doing an undergrad Masters at Oxford (and a good few other U.K. unis) is likely to be more valuable to a potential high flyer than a year abroad or year in industry. I seriously doubt there are many truly good placements available for a student with only a couple of years undergrad study under their belts versus the numbers of unis claiming to offer these options.

@ErrolTheDragon And the students will be competing for the placements. I bet quite a few get nothing. All those chemical engineers want them too!

@irregularegular re gcse results what is the norm.

GCSEs
GCSEs will be taken into account when we consider your application but they are just one aspect that we look at. GCSE results will be considered alongside your personal statement, academic reference, predicted grades and performance in any written work or written test required for your course.
If you are shortlisted, your performance in interviews will also be taken into account.
Higher grades at GCSE can help to make your application more competitive, and successful applicants typically have a high proportion of 7,8 and 9 grades. However, we do look at GCSE grades in context.

Just posted on another thread.....feedback for an unsuccessful lad at our school was simply that he didn't have full marks at IB predicted (basically the equivalent of all A prediction) , so he wasn't even offered an interview. And that was for chemistry (but I don't know which college he had applied for). A lesson for our 6th form team as well there. No aptitude tests for chemistry at Oxford. Two interviews (one was very heavily maths based from what my son said). The chem offer at Oxford is one of the highest at 2A, 1A, but other subjects have the extra tests before hand, maybe explaining the offers being a bit lower?

Or it’s because huge numbers are predicted A star X 3? They interview around half of applicants for 205 places. If IB prediction is not 40 IB points with the required individual scores, maybe the school didn’t look at what was required?

I would not advise her to apply if she is not predicted to meet the standard offer. In my subject (not Chemistry) it is expressly stated in our guidance that we should not shortlist students in that position. I would be surprised if it is different in other subjects. Added to that, our senior tutor would not allow the college to make offers to students who were not predicted to meet the offer grades. Of course there may be unusual circumstances in which this might be waived but I have not seen any such case in 20+ years of admissions.

I appreciate that might seem harsh, given that so many predicted grades are different from those eventually achived, but I think she would be wasting the application if she is not predicted grades that meet the standard offer.

There's some detailed data on number of A*/9/8 grades here.

Average grades of applicants and offer holders - a Freedom of Information request to University of Oxford - WhatDoTheyKnow

But it's misleading to look at this alone as other factors will be taken into account, and crucially the grades will be "contextualised" by school and postcode information.

I thought I'd give an update - she managed to get her predicted grades to A star A star A (by sitting additional tests) and has just been offered an interview by Oxford! Still only a 1 in 3 chance of an offer after interview but she's got this far which is great.

Oh well done her, that's great!

What does she like about chemistry? Would a slightly more obscure course like materials science or geoscience also be options? They can both have a lot of chemistry, but applied rather than pure.