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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

STEP 2 & 3 Exams- Can they be completed in Year 12?

40 replies

Cratos · 22/09/2024 23:24

Hi,
My DS just started Year 12 and it looks like he will need to do TMUA and STEP exams. We are at the beginning of this journey and we would like to understand if he can do the STEP exams at the end of Year 12 by any chance?
If he can, would this be advisable ? He is studying Maths & Further Maths A levels and he may consider applying to Cambridge for Maths or Economics.
Thank you for your advice.

OP posts:
Cratos · 29/09/2024 18:44

Penguinsa · 26/09/2024 18:03

This is the Cambridge Economics information from one of the colleges https://www.caths.cam.ac.uk/subject/economics it includes 2 videos a 4 minute general one on Economics and then a much longer one giving everything in a lot of detail on applying. Also covers Land Economy which only Cambridge offer. It's fine not to be talkative, lots of quieter people get in. That combination is a common one for Cambridge Economics but could also be used for Oxford E&M. He doesn't need to decide now. I also found Economics A level very dull but loved the Cambridge degree which was pretty much the same papers as now though its gone more maths based for entry now. The two other Economists at my college had those A levels. Those GCSEs are great.

Thank you very much for sharing this information and your experience @Penguinsa I hope you had a restful weekend.

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Cratos · 29/09/2024 18:50

poetryandwine · 26/09/2024 20:17

Yes, best wishes @Penguinsa

My syntax was pretty poor earlier, OP. I want to clarify that the AMSN is independent of Cambridge. Cambridge have solutions and guidance to past STEP papers, etc.

However IMO there are many candidates who could succeed at the exam, even to a Cambridge standard, who cannot make productive use of the Cambridge solutions in the first instance without some guidance. Lacking that guidance, they can get into the unproductive habits I mentioned above.

Oxbridge can suffer from a prejudice that mathematicians are born, not made. I completely accept that they are looking for a certain level of innate talent, fair enough. I agree with them that A star in FM is no longer enough of a screen, sadly, and that it is fair to attempt to screen for a higher level of insight or creativity.

I have a major difference of opinion with, I think, a generic Oxbridge maths tutor, over the effectiveness of tuition that relatively few schools are able to provide for the admissions tests. This is why I emphasise the importance of preparation - and TBF so does the STEP website

Thank you very much @poetryandwine
I guess private schools can prepare the students better for these exams and give them the required guidance since they have the motivation, resources and experience. Perhaps we need to look at some online teaching websites that offer more guidance if he decides to take admission tests.

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Cratos · 29/09/2024 19:02

We have recently heard about a degree course called MORSE as well. I wondered what you think about it. It is offered at Warwick, Southampton and Lancaster University.

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Cratos · 29/09/2024 19:09

MORSE degree: Mathematics, Operational Research, Statistics and Economics/Econometrics

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RomainingToBeSeen · 29/09/2024 19:39

@Cratos This is quite a useful link about what to expect in the interviews. They are definitely not a 'Tell me about your clarinet lessons and your success in the rugby team' type interview.

www.maths.ox.ac.uk/study-here/undergraduate-study/interviews

poetryandwine · 29/09/2024 20:38

I have heard only good things about the MORSE degree, and that comports with my instinct OP. But I am not expert.

Penguinsa · 29/09/2024 21:01

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Penguinsa · 29/09/2024 22:19

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poetryandwine · 29/09/2024 23:09

Hi, @Penguinsa -

May I ask if your expertise is in banking and/or finance?

This is a worthy goal to be sure. However it is only one, and it is only right for a certain type of person. Others in STEM, Economics, and tangential fields can have great lives with salaries that currently top out in the region of
£75-300K if they stay in technical roles, and increase if they move into management. The employers include private industry, the Civil Service and the military; sadly my own sector, HE, lags at the bottom of the range.

Prospective students should know that they can have very good lives doing something they enjoy. I am not discounting the possibility that what they intrinsically enjoy is investment banking; but there is a very attractive economic ‘middle ground’ (because many would give a body part for it) that it is easy to lose sight of.

Spirallingdownwards · 29/09/2024 23:13

Cratos · 26/09/2024 00:40

I wondered if you might know a support group for Oxbridge applicants. I had a look but I think I cannot find the right one (or maybe it doesn't exist)

There are Oxbridge groups in the Higher Education section of Mumsnet

Penguinsa · 29/09/2024 23:20

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Penguinsa · 30/09/2024 00:07

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Pallando · 30/09/2024 15:16

@Cratos I'm going to try and answer as many points as possible! Disclaimer: I work in Maths Outreach for Cambridge - in particular I run the STEP Support Programme (maths.org/step). I also interview and supervise first year undergraduates.

Technically anyone can enter STEP, so you can enter in year 12 but we don't advise it. Most candidates will not have covered the specification by then, and by the nature of STEP questions it can be quite hard to know when you look at them which specific areas of maths they will need so it would be hard to select questions based on just one year of content. By the end of year 13 A level candidates should have covered all of the Pure content and, depending on module choice, either the stats or mechanics and probably quite a lot of both.

If you end up sitting STEP and getting grades S,S in year 12 then you would probably get an offer just based on A levels BUT this is very hard! Anything less than S,S (an especially less than 1,1) and you would probably have to sit it again in year 13 (which is quite expensive).

Maths at Cambridge requires STEP 2 and STEP 3. Other universities which accept STEP usually do so as part of a range of offers (for example Warwick will accept STEP or TMUA, and either STEP paper will do: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/sci/maths/studywithus/ug/our-offer/).

Oxford and Cambridge admissions work differently. Cambridge interview a high proportion of applicants (80%+ and the proportion is highest for UK state school students), make offers to about 500 students and then uses STEP to make the final decisions down to 250. Colleges tend to make offers to those that they think have the potential to make the STEP grades in 6 months time, even if they might not perform quite as well at interview. Oxford use the MAT to select which students to interview and then the number of offers is pretty much the same as the number of places.

The Cambridge and Oxford maths courses do differ a bit (Oxford offer some "maths and" courses, whereas Cambridge has a lot of theoretical physics options), so it's important to consider this as well as the difference in admissions processes!

TMUA (and MAT) are more-or-less based on half of a single maths A-level (as that is what everyone will have covered) with a couple of extra topics. STEP is based on A level maths and further maths. TMUA is needed for Economics at Cambridge.

Since your DS is at the start of year 12 then there is loads of time to start doing stuff! I would suggest starting on the STEP Support Programme foundation assignments (https://maths.org/step/assignments) which will be useful for any maths heavy university course. It's also a gentle-ish introduction to STEP. There is also the Oxford Online Maths Club (https://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/outreach/oxford-online-maths-club) which runs Jan-June of year 12 (followed by MAT prep June - November, this is also really good TMUA prep).

For super-curricular ideas see: https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/super-curricular_suggestions.pdf.

Hope this helps!

Pallando · 30/09/2024 15:25

The other thing I should add is that we provide lots of support on the STEP Support Programme website - the most important thing is that students work through questions and then use the feedback materials we provide to assess their work (even if they got the question "right" they should look at other examples of how to tackle the problem to gain ideas on how they could set out their working to maximise credit, or even pick up tips for other methods).

We rune two sets of webinars a year, "Interview Preparation webinars" in November (aimed at those who have just applied to Cambridge) and also 10 weekly webinars for UK State School Cambridge STEP offer holders between March and May. I don't think STEP is "teachable" in the sense that independent schools can teach their students how to do it, but they might have an advantage in that their schools might set STEP questions regularly and make their students practise!

Cratos · 30/09/2024 23:41

@poetryandwine thank you very much for your insight. I think work / life balance is very important. I wouldn't like him to work in a field that he doesn't enjoy. However at this stage he seems pretty indecisive. I think we will need to wait and see.
@Pallando we are grateful for the information you provided and for your time. I will share it with my son. Very very helpful.
@Spirallingdownwards thank you. I will check the threads again. I saw the one called Redirected from Oxford and Cambridge 2024.

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