Is medicine a possibility at all?

[TipsyTiger]

Asking on behalf of a friend, brief details are as follows -
9 GCSES grade 6-9, Maths at a 5
A levels Biology, History and Psychology - predicted BAA respectively.
UCAT 2450

I’m trying to support my friend to support her DS, but from reading the medicine threads I’m thinking a re-think may be needed?

With those A levels, the low UCAT score and average GCSEs I’m afraid the poor boy has no chance of getting a place to study medicine. Even if he were to apply abroad he still needs chemistry A level.
Please speak to your friend again and show her the threads on Student Room. It may be worth asking someone from the school to speak to them too. There’s no way that any responsible sixth form will let him send off his UCAS form based on this.

She may want to consider Malaysia as an option. With exceptional results first year, she can apply to attend Med school elsewhere after that or just complete the degree there. I know of three people who did that. One student continued their med studies at a prestigious university in North America after their first year.

Could you suggest he puts a Biology degree as his fifth choice, with a view to then trying for Grad Entry Med. That might be enough to keep his family satisfied, and hopefully in three years he'll have a bit more confidence to say 'no' to his family, or at least think about allied professions.

@TipsyTiger realistically no. The 5 in Maths ruled out most places. 11 don't need Chemistry but they need a higher UCAT. Sorry.

Medicine is a pretty shit job tbh ( it's my job so I can say that with some certainty). You have to really want to do it or it's unbearable

One of my best mates was pressured by his Asian family to do medicine despite hating it and clearly having talents that lay elsewhere. He is very clever but due to lack of motivation he barely scraped through clinical school hating every day of it.

He never actually worked as a Dr and is now 10x richer than me having had a very successful career in the City.

He tells me his mum still asks him when he is going back to medicine...

He should be very wary of the study abroad options too. Many are in Eastern Europe and I know some young people who have had a rough time far from home in societies where they felt pretty unwelcome and then found their courses prepared them poorly for U.K. medicine.

NHS doctor apprenticeship?

These don't really exist yet. There is a small pilot running at one hospital trust with one partner university in 2024-25 but it's not at all clear yet what might be available the following year. And the academic entry requirements are still high.

Just to address a few other points people have made...

There are (I think) 18 medical schools that don't require A-Level chemistry. Many that require two sciences do include psychology (see, for example, the listings for Lancaster and Leicester on the Medical Schools Council entry requirements page). There are far more than just these two: I just happened to have those two open. Biology + psychology + history isn't a particularly unusual combination for medicine applicants.

A small number of medical schools (six last time I counted) don't take any notice of predicted A-Level grades but for most of the others predictions of AAB are likely to be a problem.

GCSE grades are used in a very wide variety of ways. The number of medical schools that don't score GCSEs and don't require chemistry and don't use predicted grades and accept mid-ranking UCAT scores will be very low, although I don't think it's quite zero. A 5 in GCSE maths will automatically exclude him from some, too.

Re graduate-entry: this has become slightly less competitive recently with Chester and Three Counties (Worcester) being allocated home student numbers, and will ease a little bit more as Pears (Cumbria), Portsmouth and Surrey come on-stream. The government's desire for 4-year medicine degrees might lead to an expansion of graduate-entry programmes, but this is still very much up in the air. I've certainly noticed a drop in the number of graduates accepting offers for our standard-entry course, which might mean more are getting offers for graduate entry elsewhere.

I don't think European medical schools do all require A-Level chemistry. However, they mostly have entrance exams that include chemistry (and physics).

The really big worry here is the emphasis on what the parents want. That is absolutely the worst possible reason for studying medicine. And applying with little or no chance of success risks causing a fair amount of psychological trauma. It is difficult if the whole family works in medicine for them to understand what other options there are, so the son really needs to talk to a careers adviser and do some research for himself. If you, as the mother's friend, are able to get her to realise that she's not putting her son's interests first, you might be doing him a big favour. Then again, if he doesn't apply or doesn't get in, she might spend the rest of his life reminding him of the fact.

There are (I think) 18 medical schools that don't require A-Level chemistry

Sorry, just checked again and it's 16

For @mumsneedwine's records:

Anglia Ruskin
Bangor
Brunel
Dundee
East Anglia
Keele
Kent & Medway
Lancaster
Leicester
Manchester
Newcastle
Plymouth
Queen Mary University of London
Sheffield
Southampton
Sunderland

If it helps here's my spreadsheet snapshot. The 5 in maths matters more unfortunately.

Yes I think a realistic re think because medicine is unlikely.
How about a degree in a biological science? Lots of people do that then medicine after.
Or something like physiotherapy or radiography

You'll need to be an extremely high candidate for these limited places. You get paid something like £27k a year. It will be harder than getting into medical school

A lot of food for thought, many thanks. I’m going to try and broach it again with my friend.

OP it sounds like you’re a really concerned friend but honestly I’d not broach this again? If your friend is so determined it’ll only cause a row?

The school will also be advising, and who knows maybe he will get an offer? A friends daughter did a bio med degree (her non medicine option as she didn’t get the grades) and then went on to study medicine so it can work out.

A gap year would be the most sensible choice i think if he really wants to do med but would need to achieve better A levels and also there are a lot of 'issues' with these stats. The UCAT can be redone but not doing chemistry, potentially having to retake A levels and the grade 5 in maths and presumably not very strong GCSEs means it narrows down the Unis he can apply to. Its not impossible though I'm sure with the right effort he can get in next year.

I'll just add that some people try and get on other courses such as Biomed and then transfer to medicine however it isn't guaranteed you will be able to transfer this way so a risk and in my opinion not as good as taking a gap year - but of course everyone will have their own circumstances and opinions

Doing Biomed would give him breathing space from his pushy parents though...

Yeah I didn't realise he needed to get away from his parents. I'm doing med and living at home but I recognise for most people they want to have that independence and space after college/sixth form

Biomed is perfectly fine as long as its not done for the sole purpose of getting into medicine as like I said its not a guarantee

I just meant I’ll offer up the suggestions of different courses. She’s my friend and obviously I love her dearly but our friendship is such that we can both speak our mind. I haven’t, and won’t, go so far as to say I think she’s wrong, just gently suggest other options. I also think her DS needs to have the opportunity to weigh up different options.

Re school, DS is at an independent school who very much go along with whatever parents want.

If his family are all in medicine, it's surprising they weren't aware nearly every med school in the country requires chemistry A level.

I don't know on that one. According to my aunt, her granddaughter has just started doing medicine and had multiple offers by Christmas last year. She got okay, but not brilliant GCSEs from a private school, but she has always seems rather unsuitable for medicine (eg. she has panic attacks when people are around and has to go and lie down alone because she can't cope with people, won't look you in the eye or talk - and this is round people she sees frequently).
However her parents are both doctors, so she had lots and lots of very impressive looking work experience with them and friends.

Now it might be that my cousin is drawing the long bow and it's not actually medicine, but medical related, and I'm not inclined to poke the bear and ask because it's not my business.
But if he wants it (and it should be if he wants it, not the parents want it) then maybe packing lots of work experience in will make a difference.

If he doesn't want it, then I suggest he needs to talk to his parents about what he would like to do, because otherwise he's going to have a miserable next few years. Even the medics that really want to do it find it tough.

@Caramilk think your aunt might be exaggerating slightly 😂. There are 2-3 Unis that offer before January to a v small amount of students. So unless she had the most stellar UCAT and got all early interviews at these precise Unis then it's not true. Only 1-2 care about work experience - majority never read the PS.

It's mostly down to UCAT. And most won't get offers before Feb.

Grade 5 in maths leaves v v v few options (2). All of which require high UCATs. If his parents are doctors then they really need to speak to more medical students about how to get in these days.

@mumsneedwine it isn't my aunt who's exaggerating. She fully believes my cousin, I'm confident of that. And my dc tell me that her granddaughter told them last Christmas that she had multiple offers for medicine at that point, so if it isn't true, they're obviously going to great lengths to hide it. And her younger brother would blurt it out I'm sure if he was aware it wasn't true (younger brother is far less academic and likes to drop big sister in it)

I have to admit that it did seem rather surprising, knowing her as I do, but I was willing to believe that maybe the work experience had made a difference. (although I also felt that is a tad unfair)

And if it isn't true, then I'm really sorry for her because feeling that she has to make this pretence rather than be proud of what she has achieved, so on that basis, I hope it's true. 😥

@Caramilk work experience alone will not get you an interview. UCAT and grades (they don't need to be perfect but do need 7s). So possible they got lots of offers - just not before Christmas. Students have to wait for ages ! So maybe the medicine bit is right, but the timeline a little optimistic.

Can you even do biology or biomed without A level chemistry? If he didn’t do well in Maths GCSE and couldn’t cope with A level chemistry surely he would struggle with medicine at university. It’s also worth considering that pure science at university can be more academic than medicine, I did biochemistry and the intercalating medical students found this to be true.

I knew some people who went into medicine to please their parents. It didn't end well. Parents are idiots if they are pushing this.

@mumsneedwine
I hope you're right, but they told my dd (who only asked if they'd applied to UCAS yet at Christmas, so not needing to say this) that they had three offers for medicine already, which seems a bit precise if they hadn't. And from what you say this sounds unlikely.

They're not normally a boaster, which was why I took it at face value, and my cousin can be a bit pushy, but I wouldn't expect her to lie directly.